Gearbox service by ZF in Dortmund
 

Here follows a really quite interesting post on the topic of servicing our good old 5 speed ZF gearboxes. The link is very BMW-Centric as its a BMW forum, however we had this brought to our attention by one of our customers who took his A8 there. BMW, Jaguar, Range Rover etc all use the same ZF gearbox we do.

It cost him just under 400 euros for a full service, and although his box felt fine before it went it, it felt very, very smooth afterwards.

The interesting concept here is the idea of servicing the 'shifter brain' which makes more sense when you read this link and enjoy all the pretty pictures.

But the thing I find most interesting in this, is that the life of the gearbox is portrayed as almost infinite, if it is routinely serviced in this way......

I cant vouch for that, but thought you'd all find it interesting nontheless.

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/527361

WOW - what a service and a great write up. ZF are only a 4hr drive from calais...

Map

...seems almost worth it just to get a service like that for that sort of money. You'd be pretty sure it wouldn't be going wrong any time soon +++

-Oli

Top Find Ian. Added to the Transmission Sticky and Recommended Dealers Sticky.

Fantastic service and a fantastic write up - thanks Ian yes a really interesting find (makes you want to drive to ZF just to watch them do it!) +++

Hello there,

I know the transmission sticky have been updated and perhaps this is really overkill (:)) but could (should) the thread on recommended suppliers be updated with this info too?

B

It has been! :o
Under Europe / Germany

I emailed them on Monday, got a read receipt but heard nothing more from them. I was prepared to drive across to them, but my gearbox has got progressively worse, so I don't think I'd make it (I would if I had very few stops!). Looks like the best place I could take my S8, so it's a shame they didn't reply.

I emeailed them last month but in German and got a reply the next day. Prices have gone up a little but they were still very reasonable. I'm tempted purely by the fact that if, in the course of the service, discover my torque converter is as shagged as I think it is they have the parts on the shelf ready to go.

Bill

I'm sad to report that 7000 miles after this wonderful service, the gearbox in question started to develop faults much the same as any other box would at that age / mileage.

Whilst the ZF 'wonder-service' looked so, so impressive, our first impressions are now that perhaps its no more beneficial than a service by a good independent over here.

Perhaps, if serviced by ZF every 20-40K throughout its lifetime, then it may make a difference, but in reality many of these gearboxes dont get their first service until 100K plus miles, and it seems that damage is done by that point and the death of it is inevitable.

We are noticing (apart from the S8's) that the facelift gearboxes seem to last longer. We are thinking it may be due to the electronic throttle, which noticably backs off the engine during a gear change - Something that the pre facelift did not.... This is one of Davids theorys as hes very much pedal to the metal, and notices every split second that he's not on 'full throttle'... :D Since moving from a pre facelift to a post facelift, he's noticed this 'backing off' behaviour....

Hmmm
 

Ian,

If I'm reconditioning my gearbox fully, should I still look to sell my beloved S8 soon? She's already had a pre-emptive gearbox service (for what benefit?), a new windscreen, wheels are being refurbed Tuesday and I'll book her in for a cambelt change next month. I'm not going to keep ploughing thousands into the car - I would rather consider converting it to manual instead or just cutting my losses soon. I talked to Unit 20 about a manual upgrade after hearing a rumour they'd done so to an RS6, but it turns out they haven't done the transplant yet and they push their auto issues to CAT, so no real experience of the conversion yet. As much as I love the S8, there's a fine line between dedication and commitment to a marque and foolhardy investment. At least I don't have a multitronic box (reading horror stories about those makes me wonder if Audi are any use at picking the best auto boxes). When I looked at getting a motorway muncher, I thought twice about high mileage 5 Series' because they have auto problems - turns out they use ZF boxes too!
If Chester Auto Trans replace the torque converter, friction plates etc, should I expect the box to last for a good period after the job?

Im just wondering if that is the case then perhaps all us facelifter's should be driving in full auto mode where possible rather than tiptronic mode to help preserve our boxes longer? If what you say is true Ian then it would seem like staying in auto would mean the electronic throttle does it's stuff wheras in tiptronic presumably its not likely to? :Confused:

I've noticed with my box now, after having the "A-Drum" replaced by VMT and then a solenoid replaced, the gearchange is now smoother than it's been for a long time, particularly in the morning when it's cold, there is no longer a lunge into gear from cold start.

However, I still don't trust it. It does funny things now and then, like changing down at odd times and in particular it does this one thing at high speed under full throttle whereby it misses a beat, like it wants to change down but in a split second decides not to. Usually this happens above the 4k rpm mark at full throttle in top gear, in D or S.

Also, there was one time it definitely went to change down from 4th, spent about a half second thinking about it then decided to stay in 4th for a few seconds, then changed down to 3rd smoothly. Hard to explain really, there's no jerking, it's like a manual clutch slipping very slightly before it either stays in gear or changes down.

I've decided I'm going to give it a few months still to settle down after the recent jobs, then re-assess what I'm going to do with it. I wish there was a manual conversion option, as it would be a fantastic motor and more economical with a manual gearbox, but ah well - we'll see how we get on ;)

If it were me facing a tranny reconditioning I would find out what the guarantee was first. Just having components replaced means that something else may go wrong. A 'full' reconditioning to as-new means that the warranty should cover all eventualities especially if you can use your reconditioner to service the box from then on.

Thanks Conan.

My thoughts exactly. My box now has full 12 months unlimited mileage warranty from The Automatic Gearbox Co in Rochdale after having new clutch plates etc throughout, new TC, Pump and a full in total pieces rebuild. I shall be having full changes done evry 40K from now on.


I agree a maual conv is starting to look a sensible option, even if it drops it to a simple RWD solution (mmm, 300bhp RWD sounds FUN!)

Wouldn't my S8 stay 4WD? IIRC Audi sold A8/S8s with manual boxes in Europe, just didn't market that option in UK, didn't they?
Even the wife says that the S8 is worth ploughing some more money into - mind you, as long as it doesn't stem her flow of handbags and boots, she would say that!
Have to say that SIngh's comments and the dedication here leans me towards throwing just a few more quid the ol' girl's way (car, not wife :))

glad to hear you're falling under the spell hehe (yes dear coming, ahem) +++

For those thinking of it, for a manual conversion for a S8 you would need:

From a LHD Manual S8
6 Speed box
Rear Final Drive
Flywheel
Bell housing
Pedal set
Clutch master cylinder
Clutch
Propshaft

And you'll have to:

Recode the TCU
do a bit of wiring and plumbing............

Easy

Getting the parts is hard! :(

and if u want on...
Here and Here

HI Ian,

Do you have a link of where the info was about the gearbox dying 7k miles later?

I was seriously thinking about going over there and doing that service as i'm off to holland soon and could swing by.

Would the changing of all the parts shown in that Bimmerboard write-up not help? The little ball and the piston they replaced were differently sized.

Gearbox pressure marble:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...F/IMG_9903.jpg

Main pressure piston:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/e...F/IMG_1691.jpg

I wonder if it's worth doing the service anyway :Confused:

(a) to ensure the gearbox not only gets new fluid but the whole unit is thoroughly cleaned and

(b) the new parts should hopefully make the gearbox work better (why else change the parts unless it's an improvement on the old design?).

I'm not sure i get what actually goes wrong in the gearbox but what do you think...worth still doing at 76k or not?

Thanks,

oli

There is no forum post - we have an email in our inbox offering it to us cheap... :-(

We're getting a lot of queries about gearbox servicing now, and its a tough call to make.

I dont doubt that if a box was routinely serviced from new every 20,000 miles then its sure to last longer, but the owner who pays 50K+ for a car is only going to keep it a year or two and move it on. Whilst its not part of the routine maintenance of the car, then it wont get done in the early years...

So then they are bought second hand with 60K+ on the clock and the million dollar question is - Has the damage already been done?

Also if you did service it every 20K from new, then 8 services by the time it hits 160K and it would cost £1600 at £200 a shot, which is most of the cost of a new box... And whilst Audi are now doing all inclusive service packs, its hardly in their interest to make it more expensive for themselves..

Another school of thought says that if you take a box that has been happy for 100K miles and 'disturb' it by filling it with nice fresh oil, this can reduce the life of the box by disloging sludge that was happily not causing a problem before.

So, the bottom line is - I dont know whether you should do 'frank' or not. He has been done before at 66K, so in theory he's not really due for another 10K at the earliest ?

I assume ZF must have a pretty good idea though, as they do actually make the gearboxes, so perhaps directing these queries direct to them (in your best dutch german dialect!) might yeild us some 'best advice'

I do still strongly believe that Audi are neither best placed to advise, nor service these boxes as they simply dont have enough hands on with them, and I'm not about to start spouting recommendations as I'm dedinitely not a gearbox technician, just an observer seeing a lot of broken boxes....

I'd still love to know why the 4 speed boxes dont break..... ever...... We had one with 330,000 miles on it a few months back...:rolleyes:

I hope I am not tempting fate here, but 160k and smooth as glass changes in mine - if it didn't have a 5 on the TIP display, I would think its a 4 speed.
I am definately in the 'ain't broke' zone at the moment..
Watch it die on the way home now..

For what my opinion's worth, I think Ian is bang on the money. I bought my S8 with over 100K on the clock, zero gearbox problems. Got the best (IMO) service available via CAT and the thing starts misbehaving badly 9 weeks later :mad:.
CAT told me about the "disturbing the sealed box" theory and from my experience, this actually happened.
It's back at CAT as of today and I'm waiting to find out the cost - drove it there in Tiptronic and it was faultless, until I kicked down or pulled away from first: she turned into a ghetto gangster hopping suspension thing - quite comical when I wasn't dabbing tears from my eyes. Looks like a primary clutch or torque converter issue.
Graham at Chester Autos sympathizes and says they just rebuilt a ZF box and on finding that it was quite good inside, charged 1200 rather than 2K so fingers crossed.
The recon 'box will be guaranteed for 12K miles or 1 year (not 2 years like some places :Confused:), so I'm inclined to ask for them to replace anything that even looks dodgy, knowing that 1675 plus fitting is the "warts n all" cost.
I've asked them to look for any revised/upgraded parts from ZF in the build (noting the changes internally from Ian's thread).


Also, could have sworn I heard the steering pump whine when I was cornering today - hmm, where's Ian's business number.

Priced up cambelt change too (with water pump) and even Audi said "take a breath" to the local Independant -nearly 400 quid in parts before the water pump.

If the gearbox fails again soon, she'll be getting a "hard impact test" for the cogs from the top of Dover cliffs....

I say that, but I drove her faultlessly for 20 mins late last night, sunroof open and that V8 with those quad pipes makes me forgive all her little foibles. I call mine her, because only a woman could be so temperamental, stunning to look at and make me smile whilst draining my money so quickly! Seductive ol' barge - I should declare myself a mug!

The guy that did mine offers 12 month but unlimited mileage warranty. He told me he does get a lot of Audi's in, particularly 8's and large engined 6's.

Total cost was 2400 all in.

He also had a 52 plate S8 in which the guy had left ages ago and was due to be collecting soon ( had been out the country or something). I had a scout round it as expected, Silver with Black, it had quite a lot of corrosion on the black painted bits like windscreen surround and even the little triangular bits at the rear of the rear doors. I noticed a load of quite deep scratches all over the car so it looked like it wasn't a particularly 'cherished' example.

I have a few other theories on the gearbox issues too, ill post later.

But with regards to the cambelt kit, get the full kit from Euro Car Parts for £100. It's not genuine Audi, but it is high quality.

I'd agree on the cambelt - no need to pay past 4-500 all in!

I too am curious as to what makes these auto boxes fail. ZF seemed to have done such a good job.
From Paul's post on audiworld it looks like the torque converter wasnt that bad, and Paul's explanation of auto box operation seems to indicate that torque converters arent really expected to fail?

http://forums.audiworld.com/showthread.php?t=1751249

I had my transmission oil changed 3 years ago (at 79,000miles) and its still ok. Does this mean its safe to change it again because nothing got dislodged last time :Confused:

I have also bought a cheap DGV manual box from Germany 2 years ago, but I have been thinking hard and am mostly concluding that I prefer the auto.
I dont think I could shift as smoothly as the auto does during acceleration, and my other real worry is dropping gear when wishing to accelerate on a motorway, I would have to remember which gears I cant select at certain speeds (first :) ) and also I would need to know which revs to match it to.
I wish I could keep the auto box but I am almost resigned that its going to fail in the future.

For what its worth I found this advice from a German website:

http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/autom...-t2026016.html

One of the posts translates to:

enjoywizo

Ne, is not correct in such a way. The 4-Gang had to be still waited (oil change all 60tkm), with the 5-Gang was according to service schedule the no more planned. In addition the transmission (also the 4-Gang) reacts sensitively to inaccurate air mass and temperature levels. Since these feelers supply unnoticed falsified values with the time, the oil pressure in the transmission is wrongly computed, what increases the wear additionally. The new Tiptronic is thus not more badly - probably however maintenance and above all the air mass measurer (by the way with many Audis slowly steps out).

Recommendation here in the forum:
- ATF changes regularly (best with ZF Dortmund)
- Air mass measurers (LMM) directly along-change (with AUDI in the exchange, approx. 90€)
- Temperature transmitters likewise exchange with each toothed belt change

Then also the 5-Gang holds for a very long time. Automats are built, only evenly not for the eternity quite not if to >400NM lie close.

Greeting

If you want to shift your manual box I would be interested. +++

++++++

Thanks for the offer Conan and Ben, its good to know that someone would buy it.

At the moment I'm thinking about keeping it as a last resort measure, run the auto box to destruction, then go manual rather than fork out £2000 for a auto rebuild.

If only there was some re-engineering solution that could fix the thing in the auto box that fails. Then I could keep the auto box forever :)
why are Mercedes automatics so reliable?

Ben would you be able to do a manual gearbox conversion on a S8, I'm curious how much it would cost (for the labour)
Thanks

Say no Ben then I can buy it cheap! :ROFL:

I didn't mean I want it mate, I meant Mike needs to buy it!! He's going to need one.

apologies for misunderstanding.
Mike, there's a few gearboxes on ebay, mostly S4 (but Tozo did use a S4 box).

one in the UK
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-6-speed-q...item3a637b8650

in Germany
http://cgi.ebay.de/Audi-RS-4-Getrieb...item3cb544444b

(not sure what he is saying about A8?)

this one crossed 175,000 miles, maybe a bit too much?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Audi-6-speed-q...item3a637b8650

another S4 B5 box, bit more expensive
http://cgi.ebay.de/Audi-A4-S4-B5-Get...item2560f6f99c

I just searched S4 Getriebe on ebay.de

:)

They also have S4 flywheels & clutches,

http://cgi.ebay.de/Audi-A4-S4-B5-Kup...item3a61903f3f

For flywheel I searched Schwungrad or Schwungscheibe or Kupplung