Audi Approved Used & Warranty - Not worth the paper its written on ?
 

Yes, Me, Mr 'change my Audi every month' has been on a bit of an Audi brand downer for a few weeks now, and it's probably time I shared, as its been an eye opener.

It started with a routine warranty claim, which opened a can of unclosable worms for me.

The 4.2 Tdi Q7, currently in my tag, was bought privately, but had been purchased from Hitchin main Audi dealer only 8/9 months earlier.

Cosmetically it was great, with a massive spec, and as it was still under fully transferable, Audi warranty, peace of mind for everything else was guaranteed, right ?

A common issue I noted at the time the keyless door handles didn't work, but Dave (seller) didn't even realise it was supposed to have keyless locking. Given that he'd paid such a premium for this car, saddened me to be honest.

Anyway, I paid him some of my fine Yorkshire pounds safe in the knowledge that I could get it booked in under warranty at my local dealer at my leisure, and drove home.

It took a little juggling to get the Q7 booked in for the work doing, mainly because I needed a big courtesy car that would take all 4 kids + the missus whilst we were without the Q7, but my local Audi dealer was very accomodating about this.

It's a minimum 2 day job as the handles need painting before they can be fitted, but handles can't be painted until the work is approved by the warranty company, and the warranty company won't approve until the car is hooked up to Audis systems to prove the fault exists. This is all fine, and logical. All four handles were suspected faulty. That's 4 door controller modules bleating errors, and around £300 a piece retail cost.

Dropped the car off Monday 20th July. Got a call Tuesday, the warranty company have rejected the claim and there is nothing more my Audi dealer can do without charge. Huh ?

It seems the warranty company, being a third party, understandably, won't pay out for pre-existing faults. Hold on. Pre-existing faults. Huh ? huh ?

It turns out the car was retailed from the main dealer with the defective door handles in place, and as the warranty can only be assigned to the car when a full scan is performed, the warranty company seem to know dam well what was, and wasn't broken when the warranty was applied.

-- But they sell the warranty to the dealer anyway and allow the customer to **think** the car is 100% ok --

Huh ? huh ? huh ? So the bulletproof, world renowned Audi Warranty may, just not pay out randomly?

But wait, surely, when you explain that the car is less than 12 months into ownership from an Audi dealership they'll rush to action :Confused:

No, that's not exactly what happened. And really, that's where the little issue, got much bigger.

On the third day after getting Audi UK involved, :argue: did Hitchin agree to pay for the work that should have been done in the first place.

But it was a fight. And many would have given up. Disappointingly, I was left with the feeling Hitchin hoped I would. I learned today, they still have not paid the bill, leaving my local dealer currently out of pocket, and to their credit they haven't asked me to cough up. Yet.

Now, I dare say that had the original customer taken the car back to the supplying dealer, then hopefully it would have been quietly, and efficiently mopped up and fixed. All goes a bit wrong if it ends up at a different dealer because you moved home or sold it privately.

Why, oh why, was the car retailed broken in the first place, yet with a glowing multicheck report showing everything (including the keyless:eek2:) as fully working? Signed off by three members of dealer staff no less. Incompetence, or cost saving were my obvious thoughts but today I'm told it seems that they tried to investigate the fault but didnt get to the bottom of it (Really?), combined with a change in a number of key managers at the dealership, means they dont seem to know how it's happened. Not exactly the rock solid confidence boost I was hoping to hear. Far, far from it.

This isn't just about me, or my car. In theory my car is fixed. Or at least the keyless is. Its about all used approved Audis - Not the new ones with long warranties with no break in cover. They should be fine (??). Its the slightly older ones, where fresh warranties are applied at point of sale... You know, the ones that a lot of us buy.....

So. How many used approved cars out there are being retailed with niggly little faults ? The ones that don't put a light on the dash, and/or the customer wont notice ? Is my Q7 now fault free, or even covered in the event of other issues. I honestly don't know. Same goes for my RS6....

Did I really, honestly, get the one in a million ? I just wish someone could convince me I did..... :-(

That's pretty poor performance from the supplying dealer and as for the warranty company totally expected.

They will try and wriggle out of any claim, still it's not what we the customer expect or need.

How would we the customer prevent warranty companies from doing the same in the future?

Do we take VCDS with us, and or demand to see a clean bill of health from their diagnostics machine which they then sign on the day of purchase so we may challenge the company at a later date should we need too.

Glad you got it sorted out with your local dealership who sound to be a bit fairer then the original one.

Not good Ian, though it doesn't surprise me. I could add my views here, but as I'm now an ex-Audi customer, it'll probably not be seen as constructive on an Audi forum. Good luck getting it sorted - maybe they'll see the light and remember the value of happy customers, but I doubt it.

Yes, that does seem to be the crux of it. Treat the purchase of a used approved Audi just like any other private purchase. Hardly worth the price premium is it ?

On one occasion I was refused to scan a 5 year old Passat that a friend was buying. I wish I hadn't asked and just scanned it while on the test drive. Friend still bought the car and it showed no faults when we finally did scan it. The dealers will have to accept this that we do our own due diligence.

I'm having a few "teething issues" with my current car that has resulted in it going back to the supplying dealer for a number of weeks while they have loaned me another A8. If you were the original purchaser then the premium is probably worth it, although there is certainly a case of buyer beware in the pre-sales checks as some of the issues I have should have been picked up, indeed at least one was caused as part of the PDI!?

The advantage of having bought this directly from an Audi dealer is that they have no way of getting out of the repairs as they seem to have tried with you, ultimately pre-existing issues should have been resolved as part of their prep. I will wait and see if that is how it pans out, but thus far I have no suggestion that it wont.

I guess the issue here is the ability to buy an 'approved used' Audi outside of the dealer network, whilst maintaining the benefits of the warranty?

That was my initial concern, but as the hassle increased, it deepened into this realisation that, in theory, if a dealer retails a 2nd hand car, they can choose it seems, whether or not to invest time and money resolving issues up front.

They seem to have the option to gamble on whether you'll notice and bring it back.......

You have indicated you have issues, which is now causing you effort no doubt to book in and get resolved. Have a look at the multipoint check sheet supplied with the car. I'd be **very** interested to know if the issues you have are ticked off as ok on that sheet - Mine were.

Sometimes, customers might come back to get them resolved. Sometimes they might not, and the customer knowingly, or unknowingly just has a car that is wrong. It could be ruining the Audi experience for the sake of the dealer pocketing some extra cash, or failing to train their service staff.

My core grievance now is that Audi UK seem to have no quality control check on the dealers - They seem to be able to sell whatever, however they want under a nationwide marketing banner of the Approved Used program which makes lots of promises, some seemingly empty.

I have an open case with Audi UK to answer this exact question.

Preventing the warranty from being sold onto a car showing faults (like some other manufacturers I believe) would be a great checkpoint, but this obviously isn't the case, making me wonder if Audi UK actively turn a blind eye to the practise.... I'm still clinging onto the hope this isn't the case. :(

I had a similar experience with mine ( bought from main dealer with audi used approved warranty )...

As I picked the car up, I noticed the door handle switch had failed before I even drive it away. Turned out that since they had not registered the warranty with audi at that time, that I was not covered by audi used approved warranty at that moment. Even though I had bought and paid for a car with a audi used approved warranty! However, the dealer took the hit and did the repair at their expense. I went on to have a significant amount of work done over the next 12 months. On the bright side, I think I got an extra few days warranty out of it in the end as a result of the dealer completing the warrantee paperwork late...

So, positive result in your eyes, but fundamentally, the car wasn't prepared properly before it was handed over ?... Shocking pattern emerging here.... :mad:

I suspect that it is rife, be interesting to see what Audi UK come back with. As I said earlier, I know as a fact that some of the issues with my car were actually caused as part of the preparation by the supplying dealer, I'm waiting to get my car back as it should have been before I decide if it is worth pursuing. :mad:

There are issues at several levels with the way the network of Audi dealers, which are predominantly all parts of large dealership chains that sell many brands as franchised dealers.

The part where Audi does have SOME control is over the quality of the cars offered for onward sale to Audi dealers as approved used through returning ex-lease vehicles etc. The dealers bid for these vehicles unseen, but with a description. Before they are offered to dealers they should (IMHO) go through a pre-sale inspection to ensure they are prepared to the standard you would rightly expect, for the premium you are paying. I doubt they do - one dealer told me they do sometimes return vehicles on delivery as not being as described.

Other stock will come in directly from other dealership chain members (some not Audi) as part-exchanges, or through other sources.

All should have the PDI that Audi make such a fuss about, which seems to vary significantly in quality in my experience. Bodywork will not be rectified at all, in my experience. They will wait to see if a potential buyer notices before spending any of their profit margin on rectification. I've been close to buying an S3 Sportback priced at nearly £20k which needed 1/3 of the car painting to deal with various accident damage (RNS 3/4 panel, rear bumper, roof, bonnet) and the dealer wanted a £1k deposit up front before they'd even consider sorting it to what it should be displayed as. That deposit was not refundable if they got a local back street garage to blow it over! They don't use their own bodyshop for prep work as they charge the full hourly rate between departments internally...another main dealer low miles S5 Sportback we looked at which was described as 'immaculate as you would expect for a sub-15k mile 3 yr old car' had deep trolley dings in every wheel arch, various other dents and scrapes and an undisclosed accident repair requiring a new front nearside wing which had a poor fit with uneven shut lines and bad paint! That was £23k!

Mechanically cars can be in fairly poor condition and still be acceptable for sale. I forget the acceptable tread depth under approved used, but it isn't much above the legal minimum and they're not too fussed about mixing or correct spec either. If they pass an MOT then they're happy.

As alluded to above, part of the problem is that ANY fault with a car that's bought in will get charged to the sales department for rectification, so it comes off the sales staff's bottom line. They're much happier to ship it off site for cheaper repair, if they must. Ideally they don't want the customer to notice until after they've collected and then it's the battle with the warranty company.

The issue with the warranty companies is that after 2 years of manufacturer backed warranty, the 3rd year is covered by Audi UK (not owned by Audi Germany) and after that you're in a relationship with Mondial Assistance on a commercial basis. They're as bad as any other, although I recall Amar being full of praise for them on some work his RS6 needed.

What the answer is I'm not too sure. No solution that genuinely results in customer service at an acceptable level is going to be cost free, which means prices go up or profit goes down. Audi Germany could follow the lead of the Koreans and offer 5 or 7 year manufacturer backed warranties. They'd have to build the cars better though....Audi UK could subsidise the cost of extended warranties and be prepared to offer better goodwill when expensive bills crop up on stuff that really shouldn't break. Here I'm thinking big ticket items like engines, gearboxes and anything else that should last as long as the car is roadworthy. Case in point here is my dodgy instrument cluster on our S5 which has flickering LEDs. Local dealer, without batting an eyelid, presented a quote for £1k to replace it and agreed that was the only solution. No suggestion of any goodwill and I'm still waiting for the call back on that 2 months later....

I filled out a customer satisfaction survey after our last service on the S5 and when I marked them down they enquired how likely I was to buy another Audi. I said highly unlikely given they don't seem to last the distance like the older models. No response to that from them at all, despite me leaving my details as being prepared to discuss my feedback. Maybe they've already accepted they'll lose me as a repeat customer and aren't that bothered?

With all these brands that were once premium, but now sell more cars in their sector than Ford do, the customer service needs to improve or the impression will be that the brand is moving ever down-market.

I've had some fun with Audi warranty on the A7. Found that the keyless didn't work properly on the back driver's door when wet, dropped it off at Glasgow Audi who took 3 days of not testing it properly to test the fault as I described.. So after 5 days of having the car, they finally sorted it out under warranty (or so they told me).

Fast forward to a few weeks ago.. Car is going in for the recall on the 3.0TFSI fuel system, flag up some gearbox funnies, and that a B&O subwoofer has failed (didn't mention VCDS at that point). Drop the car off on the Friday, and on the Monday morning, get a call to say the car has no extended warranty.. Cue argument about previous visit and their time wasting.. Drive home, and send them a pic of the original invoice (thank god for 'organised' previous keepers). Turns out there's 4 or 5 systems they have to look through for warranty details, and because they couldn't be arsed looking properly last time, the dealership absorbed the £1,200 or so cost to replace all 4 handles. Warranty now sorted, but definitely worth checking everything properly before you take the car in, and that the previous owner has proper documentation of the warranty.

How did you ID yours was requiring recall work for this? Struggled to get an answer on whether our S5 with CAKA engine needs it or not....

I got a letter from Audi on it.. mine is the CGWB

Quite a disconcerting read.

While I haven't had the opportunity to buy an Audi with a 'warranty', I will make a mental note of the above.

And take VCDS with me on the test drive (like I did last time)😉

Insurances, warranties from 3rd parties, pension funds and similar schemes is something that I deliberately avoid. Because the business idea of all these schemes is to gather money from people and then return them back less money. You basically feed a middle man. I'm not interested to be part of such schemes.

To be clear, my grumble isn't with the warranty company. In my experience, where the warranty is in place, and is valid, its been a relatively smooth process.

Aside from the appalling lack of interest by Hitchin Audi in all this, my big issue, which is deepening by the hour, is that it seems Audi dealers are able to sell 'Approved Used' cars with multi point checks, when in fact its possible the checks are not actually done, or worst still, faults covered up.

Human error aside, can someone with a bit more knowledge in the area confirm if done intentionally, that it could be interpreted as fraud ?

Audi blurb on "Approved Used Cars"
 

I thought it may be prudent to paste the text form the audi.co.uk site around the benefits of purchasing an approved used car here, with a few salient points highlighted!

You'd need to get a copy of the 145 points in the report. And any outputs from VCDS showing that errors were logged before the purchase date. Though I can't see how the warranty company can claim it was a pre-existing fault and the supplying dealer can claim to not have to fix it..

If not fraud, where it may be difficult to prove intent, I'd have though it would at least be negligence, so culpable at that level, if not more.

For those who've never seen one, here is the report for my 'Approved' and checked Q7. Note check 58 specifically.

All signed off by three members of the dealership.

Looks all very re-assuring doesn't ?

It has never been disputed by the supplying dealer that the car was in fact supplied out of their door with the keyless faults.

Staggering.... :mad:

To date, I still have no idea what other issues may be pre existing on this car, or my RS6.
http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1439975934

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1439975934

Noted, thanks for the input.....

The issue is that the supplying dealer has not contractual obligation to IT, as they supplied the car to someone who subsequently re-sold it to him.

That doesn't make it morally correct or anything other than bad.

Yes, I completely acknowledge that I didn't buy direct from them, and that no contract exists directly between myself and Hitchin.

But there was a deficiency in the quality of the car as supplied to the original purchaser, under the umbrella of the Audi approved scheme and that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth, especially as its looking far less likely that is an isolated case.

I've spent years harping on about how excellent Audi is, but sadly I do have to back peddle a bit.

The cars are still excellent, beautiful, well engineered. But just don't get sucked into paying any sort of premium for one that is 'approved' is my current concern.

I should also note to Audi UK's credit, when I first spoke to them, the fact that I wasn't the original purchaser didn't dissuade their interest in the case.

They agreed wholeheartedly that any Approved user car should be sold fault free, and really who currently owned it wasn't the issue.

That is a good start then, I am watching this with interest as you know, will be keen to see if the initial view from Audi actually drives any change in the seemingly broken PDI process for Audi Approved cars!

Oh, the timing irony of this email.....

... no mention of any discount for the pre existing faulty items that wouldn't be covered if I renewed at full price ... :rolleyes:

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1439992149

Out of interest, what was the price to renew?

Varies from £889 to £2457 depending on mileage limits, excess and level of cover. More expensive than I was expecting to be honest.

Our warranty is due for renewal too. Haven't logged on for the quote yet. We've had the most basic cover just to cover the risk of major failure. Instrument cluster isn't covered on named component apparently.

Well, call from Audi UK as promised, but hasn't replaced any of my lost confidence.

Whether or not the dealers honour and follow the Approved Used scheme to letter, including the Multi point check does seem to be down to honesty of the dealerships, or more specifically, Audi UK don't seem to be able to offer any assurances that the process is followed to the standard that it promotes.

The fact that warranties can be applied by the dealers to cars, regardless of whether they are showing up faults, isn't being disputed, which continues to concern me.

And at the end of the day, the purchase agreement is between the end customer and dealer, so it is down to the supplying dealer to rectify any unhappiness, but again there seems to be no real procedure or policing of this. Its localised good will, or not as was my case.

The fallout of this for me, is that I've fallen out of love with Audi. This was never more apparent than when I drove my RS6 home from the dealer last week having got the PAS finally fixed, and driving a top end Audi no longer felt special. Quite the opposite in fact, and I've not driven it since.

The Q7 practically speaking I need to keep as its the family bus and when you need 6 seats, the choices get limited. It works ok, but every time I see it on the drive I get reminded how the Audi brand ripped me off..... :(

Not a good outcome, either for you or Audi it seems :-(.

Surely a key element of brand value is in ensuring that standards (whether it be manufacturing, service, or customer management) are met, and reflect the values that the brand aims to promote? Which is this case doesn't seem to have happened, which is a real pity when you consider the loyalty (and advocacy…) that you've provided to Audi in the past over a number of years.

Brand loyalty - not worth the paper it is written on
 

Sounds like a pretty poor show, as you know I am awaiting the return of my car which had some PDI issues which I am hopeful will be resolved. Still does leave a bitter taste in my mouth in any case.

For me it won't make me look for another car or manufacturer, personally I don't buy into the whole brand thing. I bought an A8 because I wanted comfort, security (4WD and laminated glass) and something that didn't offend people (like a range rover). With that in mind I have little choice of car with which to replace my last A8, other than more of the same which ticks all the boxes. I looked at other options, every one had a compromise I didn't want to make.

I guess they don't need to care if I'm upset, unless another manufacturer ups their game, or I accept a compromise!? :Confused:

audi have lost the plot
 

ive not bought an audi for a while now from a dealer
but
my friend john has just bought 2 cars this year

A3 2.0tdi quattro 2010 nothing but problems sorting issues out with sheffield audi
A8 3.0tdi D4 exec 2011 nothing but problems sorting issues out from im not sure exeter audi

paintwork
brakes
warning lights
and too much more to list

the approved checks are not being done properly

So, no real progress to report quite disappointingly.

Audi UK have effectively dodged the question about how Audi Dealers are policed in their delivery of the used car promise, so I've formed the opinion that they're basically free to do as they wish. Oh joy.

In terms of my Q7 the warranty is up for renewal next week, and as yet no one has been able to answer the simple question of what am I *paying* to cover that is recorded at the time of sale as not actually being covered.

Apparently this can only be answered by Hitchin Audi, who according to Audi UK have so far, declined to answer. My contact at Audi UK is off this week but did say he would ask Hitching to email me the details this week.

Its Thursday lunchtime, and fortunately I've not been holding my breath.

Its a really very poor show to be honest. I'm left with the feeling that an Audi approved used car is no better quality than any other Audi bought from any other car dealer, but has a premium price tag just be reassuringly expensive.

I don't think I'd buy an Audi Approved used car without insisting on a 3rd party independent inspection, but if I'm going to do that, I might as well buy private and pocket the significant change...... :(

I had a mate have a brand new 65 plate A6 delivered last week, but with faults on the lighting pack. Popped into a local Audi dealer on his way home from work but they "weren't very helpful" - I had hoped that new cars were immune from these issues, but seems not.

When I had some issues with Audi in the UK I have called Audi Germany (the number I dialled from my mobile phone is +49 841 890, yes, that short number) and opened a support ticket through them. Only after that I've got proper attention from Audi UK.

Can only imagine that Audi UK want to hide the fact that they're allowing dealers to run riot from the mothership in Germany.

Glasgow Audi have been shocking with the A7, not passing info on, even between visits. I don't think there's been a single visit over 3 cars that they haven't made a complete arse of...

Contact details for Audi UK MD
 

You can look this up on ceoemail.co.uk. I used it last year with a "difficult" issue with my 4th pas pump failure on my 2006 s8. Worth copying CEO on any contact with mothership in Germany.

Good luck

Richardracer

Well, case is closed. Partly because I'm not achieving anything, and partly because I feel under pressure to let them close it....

I finally, today got the email from Hitchin Audi with the results of the scan performed on my Q7 before it went out. Its worse than I imagined. It lists the door handles at fault, a compressor fault and an airbag in component protection. omg. A dealer supplied 2nd hand motor with possibly 2nd hand airbags ?. Really ? :mad:

I confess I've never scanned the car (why would I need to, its Audi Approved right?... <sigh>), and im away on holiday this time tomorrow but will have a look asap.

The overriding attitude of Audi UK is that the dealers operate under franchise and really there is nothing that they do to police / correct any wrong doings on the approved used front. They really don't seem to see this as an issue at all.

So I still have an £1800 warranty renewal to pay, if I want to cough up for a renewal, but apparently I can go ahead and do that safe in the knowledge that Audi UK have goodwill facilities they may use if I run into further trouble down the line with the already broken bits.

So my brief entry in the world of newer, warranted Audis for that 'trouble free' motoring and peace of mind has been nothing short of a disaster....

I'm definitely going back to my old recipe of buying older, and just looking after the bloody thing myself. :cool:

Surely that's a job for the small claims court, local trading standards, and the local newspaper. Audi selling a car with faults they knew about, with a warranty they refuse to support.. Can't see how they could make that stand up in court, as the vehicle has been materially misrepresented by them in the sale.