D3 A8 hard shifting problem
 

Hi,

I'm new. it's my first post!

I've been searching the forum and found a few helpful posts on this issue however at the risk of getting myself in trouble already for asking questions that have already been answered 100 times, here is my situation. it's slightly different from the others i've read on here hence i thoguht a new post was justified....

I have a 2003 53 plate D3 A8 4.2 petrol auto box hard shift problem from 2nd to 3rd. Car has 66k on it.

I've got the SVM number relating to this problem (NA4E37AA01) and i've given that to Audi Aberdeen.

They are telling me they need to change the gearbox oil to the blue oil and perform a software update.

Only slight problem is i've just paid ''A for Audi'' in Clydebank (you know of them?) nearly £400 3 weeks ago to change the oil and filter in the box! But not to the blue oil - they put the original spec oil back in!!

They had a look at the hard shift issue but didn't know about this software update. I only found out about it after finding the posts on here a few days ago.

So my questions are:

1) Since i have new ''old spec'' oil, do you know if the software update could be done succesfully whilst retaining the old spec oil (i.e. not changing to blue oil?)

2) To anyone that's had it done already - who did the work for you? Most of the posts i've found are suggesting it's a main dealer only that will do the software update but that problem with that is, they won't do it unless i let them change the oil to blue so the total bill will be £1050 on top of the £400 i've already spent at ''A for Audi'' having the old spec oil replaced.

3) A for Audi, whilst not knowing about it initially, have been given the SVM number by me and they said they phoned the company they get their software from and they reckon they can perform the software update and said they'd do it without changing to blue oil as they think it would be OK. Does that sound plausable? i.e. getting the software update done outwith the main dealer network?

I'm on the verge of giving a dealer £1050 which i will if i have to but please help with your experience if you can!

Thanks very much!

Regards,

Chris Cruickshank

1050 seems a bit excessive.. Mine was done under warranty cover, so not sure how much it would have cost.

It did fix the issue, but I couldn't say if it was the oil or software, or the combination of both.If A4Audi are doing the update FOC, then it can't hurt to try that first.

Hi Psyche,

A 4 Audi not doing the software update free of charge but at £50 per hour for labour and a couple of hours to do the upgrade, it's 1/10th of the price of the main dealer!

The main problem isn't really the main dealer prices, it's the ''blue'' oil. The box takes 10.4 litres and they need another 10.4 litres to flush the old ''gold'' oil out. So you have to buy 21 litres of ''blue'' oil at £24+VAT per litre. So that's £605 just for the oil. Then you've to buy the filter, the gasket set and 3 hours labour at main dealer prices.

What car did you have the upgrade done on? Was it your 06 4.2 tdi or was it another car?

I suppose i could try the software upgrade first with A 4 Audi then if it doesn't work, try the blue oil as a last resort but i would have thought the software telling the box to work differently would have been the main cure?

It says in the bulletin from Audi that the main cause of the hard shift is deterioration in the cluthces in the box. The electronis can only compensate for this to a small degree and on some cars, this software update is required to significantly change how the computer tells the cluthces in the box to operate. That reprogramming of the box to use the cluthces differently is what fixes it but they say to use the ''blue'' oil also...

the main dealers are telling me you can't do one without the other but all three i've discussed it with were only reading from the Audi bulletin, they didnlt actually know from experience as they openly admitted becuase it's quite an obscure problem.

So hard to know what to do as throwing a total of £1450 at it between the service i've just had done to replace the ''gold oil'' and now this ''blue'' option seems excessive.

I know if you put the ''blue'' oil in without the software update, it eventually kills the box (someting to do with the change in friction on the clutches - the new software compensates for that) but what i don't know is if you do it the other way round i.e. the software update without the blue oil, will that cause any harm.....

aaaarrghhhhhhh

Thanks,

Chris

I'd phone Mackies in Glasgow, they're a ZF specialist.

The issue was on my 53-plate PF 4.2 petrol car,the TDi is fine

I thought the blue oil was to prevent the 'hooting' sound and the software update was to reconfigure it for the different coefficient of friction of the blue oil compared to gold? As I recall, but I may be wrong or partial recall, the TC on these has a slipping reglator clutch as well as conventional lock and unlocked, it can have a %age of slip and as the blue oil has different friction chracteristics to remove the hoot on another set of clutches it would also would cause a change in slippage of the TC regulator and so the software needs to be altered.

I assume you had the same problem before the fluid was changed?

Did they do an adapatation drive after changing the fluid?
Do you have VCDS software, cable and a laptop?

Hi,

Yes there is also a recognised problem with the hooting that Audi issued a bulletin to cover and the fix is the blue oil and software update to handle the different friction characteristics of the blue oil but the hard shift problem I have is a separate problem that Audi also officially issued a fix for. I have the old gold spec oil but I don't have or never had the hooting problem.

The hard shift was present before the gold oil was changed for new gold oil. The oil change made no real difference to the hard shift but did give a slight increase to the change quality (when it doesn't do a hard shift!)

The SVM update detailed in the Audi bulletin is to reprogram the box to cure the hard shifts which are caused by wear in the clutches apparently but it says to change to the blue oil too. It makes sense that an oil change would be a good idea as part of the procedure however what I do 't know is if they say to change to blue, just because that was the latest spec of oil available at the time the bulletin was issued or if the blue oil MUST be used if the software update is installed.

I know if you change to blue oil you HAVE to get the software update otherwise the different friction characteristics of the new oil will slowly kill the box but I need to know if the same applies the other way round. I.e. software update to cure hard shift but if you leave the old gold spec oil in, will that kill the box just like it would if you changed to blue with no software update.

Yes have laptop but I hate IT so don't have the software or cable. I know I'm stupid but I hate messing about with tech so much I'd rather pay to have it fixed.

Thanks for opinions so far. I think it's just so obscure no one will know. I think, having slept on it for a while, I'll try Mackie's in glasgow, if they don't know the answer I'll call ZF then failing that I'll just pay the £1050 for the main dealer to do the proper job. Car only at 60k and no plans to sell for many years so in the grand scheme of things, I should just man up and pay up! I have to do something though as the hard shift really eats at me to the point I get in a bad mood about it almost daily!

Cheers

Chris

P.S. no idea if they did an adaptation drive after changing old gold for fresh gold. The guy is ex Audi main dealer and they have a good reputation and know A8's so I had confidence in them to do it properly but in truth I don't know if they did adaptation drive. He mentioned something about having to get the fluid up to a certain temperature blah blah blah but I couldn't retain everything he told me!

All I can say is that apart from maybe a 5% improvement in change smoothness, hard shifts aside, it's exactly as it was before they touched. The sump gasket on the box was leaking and dripping oil onto the exhaust so I was driving about in clouds of smoke. That's why they were in at the box, not to try and cure the hard shift. Hard shift was present before oil leak so as far as I can tell, they were unrelated.

Chris

Most places don't know about the adaptation drive.
On their VAS computer or VCDS on a laptop, one can see the adaptation values that the gearbox has for various operations, these are mostly advances or retards of solenoid operations in milliseconds.

The drive is quite difficult to do successfully in the UK - I did it several times with the wife on my car for a hard shift bump sensation shifting into 1st gear when coming to a stop.
It probably needs a runway or at least going into the country at night, as one has to put the autobox in adaptation mode and go backwards and forwards many times on a trailinh throttle up to 30mph and hold for so many seconds and then up to 60 or was it 80 with a super ligt throttle letting speed build up over a considerable distance. I found it virtually impossible to complete due to people pulling out, slow traffic, speed limits, bends, people coming up behind when I need to go slow etc..
In the end, we went into country lanes at 11pm.
It got rid of my problem 100% on the third attempt. I'll try and find the instructions.

Instructions would be great, thanks! The main dealer did mention the adaption drive and I hadn't really considered that so that's another reason to man up and on this particular occasion, pay the main dealer to sort it! They must do the adaption drive on the ramp? Or does it have to be an actual drive under load?

Does this look relevant? http://uberlame.com/a6_tsb/Transmiss...ween%203-4.pdf