Crypto currency mining
This to to follow up from my online trading thread.
It seems like a no brainer if setup costs less than £2k for PC, £80 a month to run and returns over £500 every month. You build one, 4-5 months later it's paid of so you buy another one, after 2 months another, then after 6 weeks another... as far as your power supply will allow you to go (or internet connection) So Mark if you could give a bit more details with the example PC build details. Which currencies are better to mine and if you can or if it's recommended to run several at the time to spread the risk. How fast internet do you need or anything else you think I should know. |
I'd be interested to know if you need a high-end CPU to go with the GPUs or whether the GPUs do all the work. I've got some old HP Proliant servers kicking about which can take half a dozen PCIe cards so it'd be nice to make use of them.
Electricity at the workshop is half the price of home too :) Hmm the Proliants would only take two of those double-height x16 graphics cards. Is that worth it? |
While we wait for Mark to share his experience I will share some of my thoughts, it's just a gut feeling so nothing certain. I think you do not need high end CPU but at least half decent to feed the data t and from GPU's. When you look at old servers besides CPU's you need to consider amount and bandwidth of RAM and speed of PCIe bus, ist it gen 1, 2 or 3? And older tech also tend to be less power efficient so it might be wiser to invest in newer kit. I for example updated old Dell PowerEdge server with a new HP Mini server and power consumption went from over 300W to less than 50W in iddle while offering slightly more computing power. And it never does over 100W while the old one would go over 600W when pushed. I understand that on mining rig power consumption will be a lot more but still if it s 750W vs 1000W it makes sense to buy new kit.
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I've been involved in cryptocurrencies for a few years now and had various discussions about it on some of the IT/tech industry forums I participate in. So to save me a lot of retyping, I'll start by copy-pasting some of the posts I made there.
(these are predominantly US-centric forums, hence the USD/GBP cost comparisons) Some of this info may be a little out of date now but, to start with, here's a post I made comparing mining rigs and an Antminer S9 ASIC unit ... Quote:
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If you're considering getting into mining, start with a single graphics card. I'd recommend using NiceHash to mine. It's a multi-algorithm program that automatically switches to the most profitable coin/algorithm. Nice has have a profitability calculator for numerous different cards here: https://new.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator There are numerous builds and optimisations you can do but the basics are: 1) Install a suitable graphics card 2) Get a Bitcoin wallet 3) Run NiceHash and point it to your Bitcoin wallet Quote:
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I have built a lot of PC's over time so GPU rig is definitely more for me, can you share some configurations that you have built either for yourself or customers. And the software, algorithms to get it running ( hopefully on Windows but other OS are possibility if not too complicated).
Do you mine several currencies or use different algorithms on the same rig or is it one thing on each? I understand any config would be fairly loud and while I would like to use heating effect in winter I think the rigs will need to be in garage. I have old PC that I barely use with Q6600 @3.6GHz, 8GB RAM and GTX760, would it be suitable for testing purposes until I put something more suitable together or would it consume more in electricity than generate? |
Sorry, missed your last post before reply, it seems more bitcoin orientated, what about mining other currencies?
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I'll add more info as I have time but just few more points to note:
Use a wallet for which YOU hold the private keys and NEVER leave any more of any cryptocurrency on an exchange than you can afford to lose. Exchanges are centralised organisations that can and do get hacked. Crytpocurrencies are distributed/decentralised and are very secure as long as you own and protect your private keys. Examples of Bitcoin wallets are: Armory: This is a 'full-node' wallet that downloads and validates the entire blockchain. As such it can take hours (even days) to synchronise the first time you run it. You can make 'paper backups' of Armory wallets. Electrum: This is a 'seed' based wallet. A long passphrase is used as a seed to generate your private key, which in turn is used to generate lots of public addresses that you can use for receiving and storing funds. You only need your original seed and chosen password to recover this type of wallet on another computer/device. Mycelium: While Electrum is also available as mobile app it's a bit clunky. Mycelium is one of the better mobile wallets. Another good one for multiple cryptocurrencies is Jaxx. On the point of other cryptocurrencies or 'altcoins' as they're often called, there are hundreds. You can get the info on most of them here: https://coinmarketcap.com/ Many, like Ethereum, have amazing potential and lots of features. In fact, technically Ethereum isn't a currency at all. The currency called 'Ether' is the 'gas' that runs the Ethereum network, a network that is in fact a distributed platform (comprising of thousands/millions of computers) that can actually run applications, execute 'smart contracts' and so much more. Be aware though that there are a lot of junk coins (aka 'sh1tcoins'). Some are just not worth investing in while some are downright scams. |
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It'll all become clear when you download and run NiceHash. Like I said, just start with a single card until you get the hang of it. If you have a suitable graphics card already, even better, otherwise use NiceHash's profitability calculator to choose a card. We're mainly using RX 480 cards at present but (due to the recent increase in mining popularity) they're sold out everywhere. So we've just started switching to the Nvidia 1080Ti cards instead. |
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I just discovered my house mate has a GTX960 sitting in a PC gathering dust - that could be earning £30 a month! :D Plus I have a couple of i7 laptops with GTX480s. Tinkering time tonight I think... |
Just to add, if like most people when they first discover cryptocurrencies (myself included here) you think they're a fad or 'geek money', or you struggle to get to grips with how they can have any value, I'd highly recommend watching some of Andreas Antonopoulos' talks. He has a couple of books on the subject too; one that's aimed at everyone, called 'The Internet of Money' and one for much more technical readers called 'Mastering Bitcoin'.
Some talks/interviews I'd recommend watching: Andreas M. Antonopoulos: Bitcoin is Punk-Rock, You Can't Control it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6kJfvuNqtg Introduction to Bitcoin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1si5ZWLgy0 This is a very interesting interview with Andreas on London Real. This is Part 1. Unfortunately it seems like you have to register with London Real to watch the entire interview but registration is free. Andreas Antonopoulos - The Death of Money - PART 1/2 | London Real https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuoE5CXlIdY |
I've just been reading about all this, pros and cons and I don't think it's for me, been interesting though, is it really that profitable overall though?
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So the RX 480 is not available any more with RX 580 taking it's place. Would it make any difference to mining whether it's 4GB or 8GB version? Also can you recommend motherboard&CPU on how much RAM would it need?
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We've used various motherboards. You can really use any that's suitable (ie has enough PCIe slots). There are special 'BTC' motherboards that have 6 or more PCIe slots (there's even a new one due out soon with 13 PCIe slots). Initially at least, I'd recommend sticking to building rigs with no more than 3 or 4 cards. Not only are suitable motherboards for smaller rigs cheaper and more readily available but you'll have far less headaches getting smaller rigs working. With larger rigs you introduce problems like finding a suitably powerful PSU and you'll find that some GPU drivers have issues when running more than 4 cards. For smaller rigs 8GB of memory is sufficient, while larger rigs seem to run better with 16GB. Here's what we have in one of our smaller (3 card) rigs that runs very stable: Quote:
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Are you just mining bitcoin or other currencies as well. I understand that emerging currencies are less predictable but potentially could be more profitable.
Can you run more than one mining operation on the same rig either sharing resources or say one on GPU and another on other GPU? |
I think I will test the waters with my current PC that I rarely use with GTX760, maybe upgrade GPU later. My currnt motherboard will take 2 GPU's but will be on x8 on each and gen 1 PCIe, not sure if it will affect performance. If it looks promising I might built a rig with 6 GPU's
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Generally NiceHash pays more than mining directly, with the added bonus that you don't have to keep manually watching/switching algorithms to the most profitable one. It has been asked numerous times (on the Bitcointalk forums and other places) how it can be that NiceHash can pay more than the currency is sometimes worth. The answer, they explain, is simple: People don't always mine for profit. Think about this: Let's say you own a business and you want to get money out of the business under the tax man's radar. You could use company money to buy mining equipment and use the company's electricity to run it, OR you could pay to rent computing power (and put it down to business running expenses). Not that I'm suggesting anyone should use cryptocurrencies to hide wealth or avoid paying taxes, but clearly this sort of thing goes on. Another thing to think about is that, if cryptocurrency prices continue to rise (and, considering the technology is still in its infancy, they should), whatever you acquire (be it by buying hashing power, mining or buying directly), could be worth far more in a few years time. Prices could also fall of course but you can insure against that to some extent by holding a few different cryptocurrencies. |
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Pretty soon you'll get the hang of NiceHash and you'll be installing graphics cards in everything and building larger rigs. I've even considered offering some of my customers 'free' computers, or rather rented computers that pay for themselves through mining, with the added bonus that they would double as office heaters. |
So far I have set up bitcoin wallet now and Nice Hash mining but my Kaspersky Internet Security has gone viral. after pressing allow like 200 times it pops up again like every minute.
It only uses 5% of my old CPU na d about 50% of 8GB of RAM. |
Rough calculations at this point show that I will be using £27 per month in electricity and getting back about £19. Decent graphics card should improves this but I have to run numbers first.
MikkiJayne how do you get business rate for electricity, is it as simple as registering company and then doing energy contract? |
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Certainly some cards are far more efficient at mining than others. If you're building a rig specifically for mining or it's a PC that wouldn't normally be on 24/7 you do need to take the rig 'overheads' (CPU, drives, etc) into account when calculating the running costs. If you can't make use of the heat generated or you want to get electricity usage down to a minimum, building a larger multi-card rig might make more sense. The rig overheads will be greater when mining with just a few cards. Also, depending on which card you use, you can usually make some adjustments to improve efficiency. For example, with the AMD cards you use the supplied AMD utility 'Wattman' to reduce the GPU frequency by about 15-20%. This has no significant impact on mining performance yet reduces power consumption from about 160W to 100W per card. For comparison, I have a 2 card AMD rig (RX 480) that consumes about the same as yours (~£27 per month) but makes about £100-£150 per month. Quote:
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I've moved this thread to "IT AV and other Tech" as it sits better here +++
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Just setting up one of the laptops now. Core i7 with a GTX280 so we'll see what that can do to get going and then have a play with the 960 :) |
Well that was a waste of time. Nethash Miner won't detect CPU or GPU on my i7 laptop :mad:
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Laptops are generally no good for mining. Even if they have supported hardware, they're not designed to be run at full power for extended periods. Cooling is very limited and frequently running BGA (ball grid array) type CPUs/GPUs hot can lead to faults caused by solder fatigue.
It's best to stick to using full size systems and one of the graphics cards listed here: https://new.nicehash.com/profitability-calculator |
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Following this thread with interest. +++ Is it possible to build a rig into a proper pc case or is it usually Frankenstein'd? I have a silverstone TJ-07 case thats never been used sitting in the loft. Also surprised to see they don't use liquid cooling for quietness and maybe heat recovery to be used for the house? |
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The fans in the GPU rigs aren't particularly loud and you can use the heat to heat your house/office. I used my Antminer S9 (which is loud!) to heat my workshop for the latter part of last winter. I usually use an electric heater but with the Antminer pumping out 1.3kW of heat continuously I didn't need any extra heating. So it didn't save be anything on my heating bills but it effectively cost me nothing to run either. Over a 3 month period it probably made me about £1000. I've since moved it to my customer's server room (where it has all the free electricity it can eat). This is the customer I'm helping to build a mining farm for, so I get to use their electricity for free as part of the deal :) |
Anyone looked into dumping a PV install on their garage roof and running one off that or would the power setup not work/be reliable enough? Just thinking aloud here... what sort of bandwidth drain does this have on your internet connection as well?
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Using PV is quite popular for mining. This guy converted his shed into a solar-powered mining farm: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AmMV-Bmhh8 |
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http://forum.notebookreview.com/atta...001-jpg.42797/ They're basically desktop machines in a folding case. I used to use them as portable Hyper-V hosts running Windows Server. I've got three of them just sitting about now so its most vexing they won't even run it. Trying a dual Xeon gaming PC with a GTX 960 now... |
That solar powered rig is very cool indeed +++
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It won't recognise the GTX960 either :mad:
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That certainly is a hefty looking laptop!
The GTX960 looks to be supported. Try updating the drivers. |
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Seems like this stuff just wants a random pile of junk rather than a complete working machine :rolleyes:
This works fine apparently: http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1498577195 Currently running at $1.52 a day. |
:ROFL:
Looking good. The pile of junk appearance is very in-keeping with the mining ethos. +++ Now you just need a few more cards, dangling from risers, to increase that daily rate. I've just ordered a couple of 1080 Ti cards today at an eye-watering £650 each. They should make close to £10 per day between them however. |
Is there much performance impact from running an x1 to x16 riser? I've got 1x1 and 1x16 on this board so I could at least get another 960 on it. The Xeon board has 2x16 and 2x8 though so I could get four on that if I can persuade it to work. It might have just needed a clean OS install. Not sure there's much point powering a pair of Xeons though since the Core2 Quad on this machine is just idling.
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Can I ask why you went with that choice of card, looking at the calculator would say otherwise or am i missing a key factor?
http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1498583194 |
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Depending on which Xeon CPUs you have there, you can probably mine with those too. You won't make a lot from them but they'll probably cover their electricity costs (just). Unlike GPU mining though, other applications may suffer reduced performance while CPU mining. I often run NiceHash when I'm setting up new servers for customers as a kind of soak-test. It gives the CPUs, fans and PSUs a good workout and confirms everything is stable before I start installing and configuring everything. I have a HP ProLiant DL360p Gen8 on my bench right now. Here's a NiceHash screenshot of its workout a couple of weeks ago: https://i.imgur.com/bWFNot5.png I calculated the electricity usage to be a little over £1 per day, so I was making a small profit. |
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