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Old 22nd February 2018, 07:38 PM
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Spanker Spanker is offline
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Default Carbon Cleaning

A sponsored post popped up in my Facebook feed the other day and it got me thinking.
It was from Doctor Carbon and I popped over to their webpage to have a look and so see what the cost was and the "BEFEFITS" (how they haven't spotted that spelling clanger on their homepage is beyond me ).

Anyway, for £75 I thought it might be worth a punt.
When Big Red was down with MJ last year, so much work was invested in her (the car) but the combustion bits were left as they were as there appeared to be no issues.
Well, there still don't appear to be any issues with the internals except for an engine management light that I've not looked at with VCDS yet (but will soon), but as the car is fast approaching 150k miles, I thought this type of treatment would be beneficial.

So I thought I'd ask for some opinions from those that know more than me.
Anybody used this type of service with good or bad results?
Can the high temperatures caused by the pyrolysis potentially cause other issues?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it?
Is it just the motoring equivalent of snake-oil?

Edit: I remembered Edd China doing this on Youtube and have just Googled to see that my local garage offers this Terraclean service so I'll check out their prices if someone doesn't tell me of some disaster stories around this.
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Future work on "Red Dwarf": Fridge, solar sunroof, radio-controlled clock, interior and exterior dimming mirrors, Alcantara headlining/pillars/rear shelf, rear US outer lights, passenger memory seat, rear electric (lumbar and headrest) heated seats, Servotronic.
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Current:
2002 A8 D2 S8 FE - "Red Dwarf" - Misano Red - Platinum/Silver Interior, PDC, Sat Nav Plus with BOSE and hidden Dension Bluetooth, Multi-changer, Heated Front Seats, Bi-Xenons, FE Wheels, Phone Prep with Nokia 6210, Detachable Towbar, Rear Blinds, S8 plate but no other optional extras
1st Place Winner - A8Parts Annual UK Meet 2018
1st Place Winner - A8-Freunde Annual German Meet 2018
2nd Place Winner - A8-Freunde Annual German Meet 2019
2002 A8L D2 with a factory fitted S8 engine and drivetrain - "Evergreen" - Irish Green Pearl (TBC) - magnolia leather seats with magnolia door cards/door trims, magnolia leather head-lining, extended leather pack 3 (dark green leather dash, upper door cards, steering wheel, lower dash, centre tunnel and rear parcel shelf), factory black external trim (in lieu of chrome), self-levelling suspension, Servotronic, Brembo brakes, "gullideckel" / "man-hole cover" / "pie-plate" 8Jx18 polished 10-hole design wheels typically seen on the W12, Park Distance Control, heated windscreen, multifunction steering wheel, Vavona burl (burr-walnut) wood inserts with cream/magnolia door switch trims, phone preparation to the front with Nokia 6091 phone, phone preparation to the rear with Nokia 6091 phone on the central rear console, third phone preparation in the rear centre console, rear blinds, rear headrest release feature, rear electric heated seats with lumbar and recline function (the rear passenger seat has the facility to move the front passenger seat forward), BOSE audio, Rear Screen Entertainment (RSE) with dual factory fitted Alpine screens, integrated DVD player (under the centre of the rear bench with 4 DVD storage slots) and two remote controls (the controls and inputs for the RSE are in the rear centre console and the screens can operate independently of each other,) factory supplied leather headrest covers to hide the rear screens, rear vanity mirrors (standard A8L), dark green rear wedge footrests with cream piping, front passenger memory seat, dark green floor carpeting and mats – piped in cream, rear slumber pillows for the headrests, integrated fridge with integrated tumblers inside the rear centre headrest bar compartment, solar roof, auto-dimming interior and exterior mirrors, factory driver’s seat fire extinguisher, tire pressure monitoring system, first aid kit, 12 V socket in the boot, TRACKER, derestricted – top speed is 155mph plus
2007 A6 Allroad C6 3.0TDI Quattro - Highland Green (Audi Exclusive Colour) - Cream leather interior with Wood, Advanced MMI, Keyless, Bose, Advanced PDC, Sunroof, Heated Memory Seats, Adaptive Xenons, Adaptive Air Suspension, Servotronic

Previous (went to good homes):
2002 A8 D2 2.8 Quattro Sport - "Big Red" - Tornado Red (Special Order) - Twist Interior, PDC, Passenger Memory Seats, Symphony II with BOSE, Heated Front Seats, Bi-Xenons, Auto-dimming Mirrors, 20" FE Wheels, Servotronic Steering
2002 A8 D2 2.8 Quattro Sport - Aqua Blue Pearl - Twist Interior, PDC, Sat Nav Plus with BOSE, Multi-changer, Heated Front Seats, Bi-Xenons, Auto-dimming Mirrors, Avus Wheels


Last edited by Spanker; 22nd February 2018 at 07:39 PM. Reason: .
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Old 22nd February 2018, 09:10 PM
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Someone more knowledgeable will be along soon, I'll chip in in the meantime
Petrol D2s have the good old injector in manifold system, meaning the injector nicely sprays the tops of the valves all the time. Make sure you do WOT now and then so the injectors do a full blast of fuel over the valves.
For this reason I really doubt D2s have much carbon deposits.

Certainly I doubt they have the troublesome deposits on top of the valve which some new FSI engines suffer from. This is the problem type deposit because it can cause problems with valve seating and reduce air intake volume?
FSI injectors are inside the cylinder so never spray the tops of the valves.

So my guess is, total waste of time and money on a D2
Unless it was run on cheap/bad fuel for a long time, and used non-synthetic oil.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 09:26 PM
MikkiJayne MikkiJayne is offline
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Its total snake oil, particularly on engines like ours.

The Terraclean stuff does nothing that petrol don't already do every time you run the engine, especially with the ethanol content in modern fuels. The inside of the fuel system - injectors, fuel rail etc are all spotless, kept so by nice filtered fuel, and because our engines use port injection, the fuel spray keeps the ports nice and clean so there's nothing for Terraclean to do anyway. Your engine's ports were perfect btw.

The only places that really get dirty in these engines are the throttle body (which I cleaned) and the crankcase breather system (which I replaced). Terraclean couldn't do anything with those because they're all upstream of the injectors.

Carbon cleaning does apply to direct-injection engines though (petrol and diesel), especially those with exhaust gas recirculation (egr). The oily vapours from the crankcase mix with the hot soot in the recirculated exhaust gas to make horrid sticky tar which settles on everything. As there is no fuel spray in the ports (since it's directly in to the cylinder) the tar builds up until the engine can barely breathe. Its a common problem on all the FSI and TDI engines, especially the D3 S8 and S/RS4. I've seen TDIs with the inlet so clogged there's barely space for a finger in there! The only way to clean that is mechanically - get in there with tools and dig it out. There's no chemical treatment that's safe to put in an engine which can clean that muck.

You're better off spending your £75 on a tank of Tesco Momentum or Shell V-Power and going for a thrash

Edit - I spent far too long writing that Good point about dino oil Goran. That killed a lot of early 20V engines.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 09:31 PM
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homer simpson homer simpson is offline
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I've seen a few companies offering this. Terraclean is a different system, I believe this version cleans via the intake manifold although I'm sure someone will correct me.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 09:42 PM
MikkiJayne MikkiJayne is offline
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The Doctor Carbon 'how it works' explanation is complete gibberish. They claim that putting hydrogen in to the inlet manifold increases combustion temperature and burns off the carbon. How does combustion in the cylinder clean carbon from the inlet ports?

They're essentially charging you to electrolyse some water and feed the gas in to your engine. Its like homeopathy for cars

Last edited by MikkiJayne; 22nd February 2018 at 09:59 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2018, 10:33 PM
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RS6 RS6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkiJayne View Post
Its total snake oil, particularly on engines like ours.

The Terraclean stuff does nothing that petrol don't already do every time you run the engine, especially with the ethanol content in modern fuels. The inside of the fuel system - injectors, fuel rail etc are all spotless, kept so by nice filtered fuel, and because our engines use port injection, the fuel spray keeps the ports nice and clean so there's nothing for Terraclean to do anyway. Your engine's ports were perfect btw.

The only places that really get dirty in these engines are the throttle body (which I cleaned) and the crankcase breather system (which I replaced). Terraclean couldn't do anything with those because they're all upstream of the injectors.

Carbon cleaning does apply to direct-injection engines though (petrol and diesel), especially those with exhaust gas recirculation (egr). The oily vapours from the crankcase mix with the hot soot in the recirculated exhaust gas to make horrid sticky tar which settles on everything. As there is no fuel spray in the ports (since it's directly in to the cylinder) the tar builds up until the engine can barely breathe. Its a common problem on all the FSI and TDI engines, especially the D3 S8 and S/RS4. I've seen TDIs with the inlet so clogged there's barely space for a finger in there! The only way to clean that is mechanically - get in there with tools and dig it out. There's no chemical treatment that's safe to put in an engine which can clean that muck.

You're better off spending your £75 on a tank of Tesco Momentum or Shell V-Power and going for a thrash

Edit - I spent far too long writing that Good point about dino oil Goran. That killed a lot of early 20V engines.
I pm'd MikkiJayne about carbon cleaning and i take her word for it
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Old 23rd February 2018, 09:06 AM
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Great explantation MJ. Snake oil it is!
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Old 23rd February 2018, 11:49 AM
ainarssems ainarssems is offline
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Pretty much what I think as well.

Most cars does not need it and if it does need there is no way it can clean 15 years of buildup in 15 minutes. I run Shell V Power and couple of weeks before MOT I add 0.5l of toluene (toluol) to half tank of petrol, you can get 5l for £20 so only £2/year expense for 0.5l. It's good as solvent and safe to use with high octane number, there was era in F1 when they were running cars on 100% toluol. Emissions have always been very good at MOT's and when I took heads off engine it was surprisingly clean even in combustion chamber.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 02:31 PM
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David's8 David's8 is offline
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Well, MJ you effectively removed the carbon from Doctor Carbon.
What I liked about the website is the "useful" information about hydrogen and its place in our universe but a total lack of evidence about the results process (apart from unsubstantiated client comments) and a "Before and after" picture of an inlet port. And, as you pointed out, unless the "pyrolytic" reaction is taking place in the inlet manifold then it is hard to see how this process cleans that area.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 04:00 PM
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Thanks MJ (and others).

You don't get much of a better answer than that.
I feel well and truly schooled. In a good way.
That's money well saved that can be reinvested in a round of drinks at the annual meet.
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Future work on "Red Dwarf": Fridge, solar sunroof, radio-controlled clock, interior and exterior dimming mirrors, Alcantara headlining/pillars/rear shelf, rear US outer lights, passenger memory seat, rear electric (lumbar and headrest) heated seats, Servotronic.
__________________
Current:
2002 A8 D2 S8 FE - "Red Dwarf" - Misano Red - Platinum/Silver Interior, PDC, Sat Nav Plus with BOSE and hidden Dension Bluetooth, Multi-changer, Heated Front Seats, Bi-Xenons, FE Wheels, Phone Prep with Nokia 6210, Detachable Towbar, Rear Blinds, S8 plate but no other optional extras
1st Place Winner - A8Parts Annual UK Meet 2018
1st Place Winner - A8-Freunde Annual German Meet 2018
2nd Place Winner - A8-Freunde Annual German Meet 2019
2002 A8L D2 with a factory fitted S8 engine and drivetrain - "Evergreen" - Irish Green Pearl (TBC) - magnolia leather seats with magnolia door cards/door trims, magnolia leather head-lining, extended leather pack 3 (dark green leather dash, upper door cards, steering wheel, lower dash, centre tunnel and rear parcel shelf), factory black external trim (in lieu of chrome), self-levelling suspension, Servotronic, Brembo brakes, "gullideckel" / "man-hole cover" / "pie-plate" 8Jx18 polished 10-hole design wheels typically seen on the W12, Park Distance Control, heated windscreen, multifunction steering wheel, Vavona burl (burr-walnut) wood inserts with cream/magnolia door switch trims, phone preparation to the front with Nokia 6091 phone, phone preparation to the rear with Nokia 6091 phone on the central rear console, third phone preparation in the rear centre console, rear blinds, rear headrest release feature, rear electric heated seats with lumbar and recline function (the rear passenger seat has the facility to move the front passenger seat forward), BOSE audio, Rear Screen Entertainment (RSE) with dual factory fitted Alpine screens, integrated DVD player (under the centre of the rear bench with 4 DVD storage slots) and two remote controls (the controls and inputs for the RSE are in the rear centre console and the screens can operate independently of each other,) factory supplied leather headrest covers to hide the rear screens, rear vanity mirrors (standard A8L), dark green rear wedge footrests with cream piping, front passenger memory seat, dark green floor carpeting and mats – piped in cream, rear slumber pillows for the headrests, integrated fridge with integrated tumblers inside the rear centre headrest bar compartment, solar roof, auto-dimming interior and exterior mirrors, factory driver’s seat fire extinguisher, tire pressure monitoring system, first aid kit, 12 V socket in the boot, TRACKER, derestricted – top speed is 155mph plus
2007 A6 Allroad C6 3.0TDI Quattro - Highland Green (Audi Exclusive Colour) - Cream leather interior with Wood, Advanced MMI, Keyless, Bose, Advanced PDC, Sunroof, Heated Memory Seats, Adaptive Xenons, Adaptive Air Suspension, Servotronic

Previous (went to good homes):
2002 A8 D2 2.8 Quattro Sport - "Big Red" - Tornado Red (Special Order) - Twist Interior, PDC, Passenger Memory Seats, Symphony II with BOSE, Heated Front Seats, Bi-Xenons, Auto-dimming Mirrors, 20" FE Wheels, Servotronic Steering
2002 A8 D2 2.8 Quattro Sport - Aqua Blue Pearl - Twist Interior, PDC, Sat Nav Plus with BOSE, Multi-changer, Heated Front Seats, Bi-Xenons, Auto-dimming Mirrors, Avus Wheels

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