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  #11  
Old 25th August 2017, 08:01 PM
paulrstaylor paulrstaylor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goran View Post
I don't think combustion is dead yet (just lose the 'internal' part).
The next level will be using combustion to generate electricity directly for electric motors.
This is the most efficient way to turn combustion into motion. There are already technologies for very efficient conversion of heat to electricity if certain companies are to be believed. Combustion is of course very efficient at producing heat.
This is something was thinking about the other day, could the "jet" car finally come of age - small turbine driven generator (like an aircraft APU)?
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  #12  
Old 26th August 2017, 09:45 AM
tintin tintin is offline
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Originally Posted by pete-p View Post
That depends on having enough street lights on the street and then being able to park near it! On my street there are about three street lights and 15 houses, each with about 2 cars at least. Some can clearly charge at home, but then will they able to boil the kettle at the same time...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...fuse-national/

There are a lot of things which need to be in place in the next 20 years, I'm sure it's possible as technology improves but only time will tell.
That's a bit like saying there should be petrol pump for every car.. The whole point about electricity is that it's everywhere. Think of it as bit like wifi: I carry around my mobile phone and use that hotspot for connectivity, but only rarely, as there are so many other (free!) places to get online. It's the same if you have an EV, and there are already plenty of charge locations of all types, so there's really no issue with charge availability.

And that telegraph article is patently bull**** - it's been roundly dismissed elsewhere, and it's just typically of the lazy journalism these days (and copy and pasting... ) that no-one bothers to check this sort of rubbish anymore. Fake News!
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  #13  
Old 26th August 2017, 09:49 AM
HPsauce HPsauce is offline
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Originally Posted by tintin View Post
That's a bit like saying there should be petrol pump for every car..
Well no, because there is the significant issue of refuelling time in relation to travel/useage time.
Until that is solved (e.g. by battery swapping?) the infrastructure, logistics, arithmetic etc. of EV's will be fundamentally different to petrol.

Probably out of date now, but this gives an idea:
"If a Supercharger station is out of reach, most public charging stations can recharge the Model S at the rate of 22 miles of range per hour"
In a petrol station that would be just a few seconds for most cars.
So you potentially need EVs connected to their refuelling devices for several hundreds times more than the hydrocarbon equivalent.
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2016 Volvo V40 T5 Cross Country (4WD) with ALL the toys including adaptive cruise etc. etc. Osmium Grey with Blonde/Charcoal leather interior. Polestar performance "optimisation".
Finally: gone, but not forgotten.....
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1998 (very early) Ford Focus 1.8 Zetec; ABS/TCS, Heated screen/mirrors, Aircon, Auto-dim mirror, Leather, Trip computer, Cruise control, OEM Ford SatNav with CD changer.

Last edited by HPsauce; 26th August 2017 at 09:53 AM.
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  #14  
Old 26th August 2017, 09:58 AM
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Goran Goran is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulrstaylor View Post
This is something was thinking about the other day, could the "jet" car finally come of age - small turbine driven generator (like an aircraft APU)?
I was thinking of something simpler, no (or very few) moving parts.
Literally just a burner/heater surrounded by these
http://www.powerchips.gi/

This is the company behind Wheeltug which has already been introduced into some passenger planes so perhaps its not complete fiction.

Besides the concept is sound, satellites are powered in a similar way, plutonium providing the heat and using thermocouples to generate electricity. Perhaps these 'powerchips' are a more efficient version of thermocouples?
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  #15  
Old 26th August 2017, 12:54 PM
tintin tintin is offline
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Originally Posted by HPsauce View Post
Well no, because there is the significant issue of refuelling time in relation to travel/useage time.
That's not an issue at all, because driver/owner behaviour changes in an EV - because electricity is everywhere, EV drivers tend to charge when they're parked, not when they're empty - so the comparison with a petrol pump for every car is valid - but I knew I'd get that reaction
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(2) 2003 D2 S8 Final Edition:Bulletproof and faultless: Ebony Black with Extended (Red!) Leather. Three-times annual winner of Best D2 1st prize forum trophy
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  #16  
Old 26th August 2017, 01:49 PM
HPsauce HPsauce is offline
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I don't see much electricity in this picture, unless the Tesla is being recharged from the other 2 cars.....
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2003 D2 FL S8. Irish Green Pearl/Beige. Solar sunroof, auto-dim mirrors, electric rear seat functions, ski hatch retrofit; extended leather. Aftermarket DVB-T, reversing camera and full XCarlink (Bluetooth etc.).
2016 Volvo V40 T5 Cross Country (4WD) with ALL the toys including adaptive cruise etc. etc. Osmium Grey with Blonde/Charcoal leather interior. Polestar performance "optimisation".
Finally: gone, but not forgotten.....
1998 D2 PF S8. AgateGrey/Platinum. Every option (I think) except electric rear seats, tiptronic steering wheel, ski hatch, towbar & dimming door mirrors.
e.g. Cruise control, NavPlus/TV, Bose, GSM, Xenons, Solar roof, Parking sensors, Alcantara/leather everywhere of course. (internal dimming mirror added later)
1998 (very early) Ford Focus 1.8 Zetec; ABS/TCS, Heated screen/mirrors, Aircon, Auto-dim mirror, Leather, Trip computer, Cruise control, OEM Ford SatNav with CD changer.
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  #17  
Old 26th August 2017, 04:23 PM
tintin tintin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HPsauce View Post
I don't see much electricity in this picture, unless the Tesla is being recharged from the other 2 cars.....
Doesn't need it - I have a dedicated charger on the drive (out of shot) - one of the many advantages of living up North
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Autos Autos everywhere...
(1) Tesla Model S: (85D). Silent and deadly, and very, very fast...
(2) 2003 D2 S8 Final Edition:Bulletproof and faultless: Ebony Black with Extended (Red!) Leather. Three-times annual winner of Best D2 1st prize forum trophy
(3) Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo: Scots Green. Fragile, but beautiful.
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  #18  
Old 26th August 2017, 05:30 PM
ainarssems ainarssems is offline
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All that electricity need to come from somewhere and at the moment UK electricity generation is stretched as it is. It's fine with relatively low number of electric vehicles but if the most were to switch to electric where is that energy going to come from? There are not much new power stations in the pipeline so it will either need to be imported or provided by small scale solar/wind. I don't see oil drilling to go down as we will still need it for other components like jet fuel as i don't see jumbo jets becoming electric any time soon or even ever so we will have abundant supply of diesel and petrol. it could be burned in power stations in more efficient way than ICE and also could take emissions out of cities and to remote areas. So there is massive changes needed to infrastructure.

I would be great if there was universal swap-able batteries for all cars but i don't see it happening for cars, maybe small commercial vehicles. Battery currently is also structural part of car giving it body strength. So for universal interchangeable batteries you would need to make body stronger and heavier which would reduce efficiency.

Charging should be made wireless, efficient and seamless at parking spaces and even while driving on busy roads.

I do see a large benefit in electric vehicles as a store of energy. If you have a car that can do 300 miles on full charge but only do 15 miles a day going to work and back with a help of Smart network you could have it to charge when electricity is cheap/free/ or you you even get paid and then feeding it back to grid at higher price when needed. I know in USA there are some states with large solar power generation that at times they pay neighbouring states just to take energy of them as it' cheaper than shutting down and restarting production. this would increase the wear on battery but most of battery degradation is when it's empty or near full charge. So you could set for example aluminium charge level 15% which should get you to work and back, optimal 30% and max 85%. So it would automatically keep enough energy for you to get to work and back and then charge battery if energy is cheap and possibly sell it back at higher price when needed by rest of grid. It could also act as a backup for your house in event of power outage. And if you are planning a longer journey you can just change settings on your phone/tablet/computer a day or couple before to make sure it is fully charged when needed.
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Last edited by ainarssems; 26th August 2017 at 05:34 PM.
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  #19  
Old 30th August 2017, 02:10 PM
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27litres 27litres is offline
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Most satellites are solar powered. There's plenty of Sun around our neighbourhood and solar panels produce far more energy far more efficiently than thermoelectric generators.

Thermoelectric generators produce mere Watts of electricity at any realistic scale. They're mainly used in deep space probes which travel far enough away for the Sun's energy to become ineffective for solar panels.
They're expensive and use a rare form of radioactive isotope for the heat pile, though for power station use or car use, the radioactive isotope is irrelevant.
NASA are working on newer more efficient designs, but they're only 2-3 times more efficient - massive improvement, but still terrible compared to terrestrial alternatives.

Thermocouples are very inefficient at energy conversion (and you reckon internal combustion is inefficient!) and only aid in improving efficiency where there's a plentiful surplus supply of heat energy.
With thermal power stations, they chase the last joule of heat energy from the steam they produce before recovering and reheating that steam to further enhance plant efficiency. There's not a lot of latent waste heat floating around that system where stealing it for a thermocouple wouldn't result in reducing system efficiency. Maybe around the boilers/burners or condensers, but they'd be controlling even that heat quite tightly.

Plenty of waste heat in a car engine however, but a turbocharger is more efficient at using it!
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Last edited by 27litres; 30th August 2017 at 02:19 PM.
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  #20  
Old 30th August 2017, 02:57 PM
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Goran Goran is offline
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Yes definitely not thermocouples which are only around 6% to 7% efficient , but these new Powerchips of which they won't release the full details about efficiency, etc. Once these technologies are more efficient than a IC engine it will make no sense to have IC engines any more. Diesel locomotives around the world already run on transmissionless IC - electric systems, all their traction motors are AC motors, the diesel IC engine is purely a generator. Only very old diesel locomotives use their diesel engines for direct motion.

Even thermocouples are there already, efficiencies over 20%

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...ium-production

Last edited by Goran; 30th August 2017 at 03:01 PM.
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