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  #21  
Old 6th November 2018, 07:48 PM
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steamship steamship is offline
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Originally Posted by 27litres View Post
Does the UK still not have its LPG infrastructure well organised? Still, when LPG is up near half the cost of petrol, the sheen is taken off the economical and environmental benefits somewhat
Here in Northern Ireland and in the rest of Ireland, the LPG pumps tend to be situated well away from the main pumps, almost as if it an embarrassment having them. On the few times I filled up with LPG in the rest of the UK, the LPG pumps are integrated along with the petrol and diesel ones.

As for the economical benefits, to this day, I still don't understand why more people don't get their cars converted, when the savings are (for me anyway) almost 50%, and my conversion paid for itself in less than a year and 10k miles.

Now if Mark could develop a similar system to his Select-a-map to work on my S8...
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  #22  
Old 6th November 2018, 09:49 PM
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27litres 27litres is offline
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Sounds like there is a system to work with FSI from what Mark was saying, just not his!
Liquid injection LPG technology is great for petrol engines. Cool dense charge + higher octane = more power + cheaper to run!
I just dont want the hassle of the large tank in my boot.
I had LPG in an old Commodore once, it was fiddly, agricultural (both in installation and operation) and robbed half the boot. The modern systems are far better I'm sure, but the government subsidies here arent that great for an $8k+ conversion and I only do 10,000km a year in the old girl, so it would take years to reap any economical benefit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moltuae View Post
the problem with direct-injection petrol systems is that, because the injector tip sits inside the combustion chamber, they can overheat without the cooling effect of the petrol passing through them. So for that reason, many direct injection petrol LPG systems allow petrol to be injected every 'X' number of cycles.
Gets complicated doesn't it!
So the cooling effect of sub zero LPG expansion prior to combustion isn't sufficient to cool them?
You used to get problems with seals drying out and making petrol unreliable in carbys, that's partly why you used to start up and shut down on petrol, and I used to generally run for a day a week on petrol too (freezing converters was another reason for using petrol on start up to running temp - coolant hoses heated the converter)
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Last edited by 27litres; 6th November 2018 at 10:04 PM.
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  #23  
Old 7th November 2018, 09:28 AM
tintin tintin is offline
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I find your last reply on this a bit confusing (confused? ) Reffro.

Firstly, you seem to have conceded the point that they are the biggest selling car (not "truck", or whatever the US call the F-150 types of pick-ups etc, which isn't really relevant in other major territories, or to Tesla) in the US, using US data. You then seem to suggest that the data is simplistic or inaccurate is some way, though it looked to me like it was referencing industry data in the table that I posted. Which is it? Maybe you could clarify to help those of use who (unlike you) don't work with this data daily and sell it to the established ICE car sellers?.

Secondly, in your reply you've not disputed or mentioned my comment about Tesla being more profitable than any other manufacturer, yet your original point seemed to at least imply that they couldn't make a profit and were going to fail? -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffro View Post
they have bugger all cash left, huge liabilities and only squeaked a profit in Q3 2018.... and a whole of load of precedents pointing to a big fail.

Tesla got a march on the product, but haven't actually profited from it, nor are they likely too. The competition becomes so fierce from now on that Tesla will struggle to maintain a margin if they don't sort out their production, oh and did I mention the debt!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffro View Post
OK, that reads a bit better, but not much...that article is typical of the puff pieces that are written in the green press, throwing in lots of facts an figures without qualification.

The article first references the US market for Q3 only, yet then refers to a global total for deliveries. The revenues for the Model 3 for one quarter only are broadly correct, but it is only a 3 month snapshot and only reference the 'US Cars' which ignores the SUV's which are classed as 'Trucks'. FYI Toyota RAV4 had the highest revenue for vehicles that we would consider cars. Also Tesla's total global revenues are still less that what Ford generated for F-150 alone in the US.

The profits are a significant positive for Tesla, but in terms of profitability they are still way behind many global manufacturers who don't carry similar debt burdens.

My point is one swallow does not make a summer. Good progress yes, but far from definitive, at a point in time when a whole raft of competitor vehicles are primed to arrive.
Thirdly, your point about debt is interesting, but again feels a bit selective really, as you've not mentioned the fact that - unlike Tesla - other major US companies had to be rescued from going under by government bailouts, costing tens of billions.

https://www.thebalance.com/auto-indu...rysler-3305670

So, whilst Tesla might have been on shaky ground in the early days (around when I ordered my Model S ), I think it's hard to argue that this is the case any more.

However, the ICE supply chains, including the big manufacturing plants and the retail chains that got fat and lazy over the last decade, are the ones who will really struggle to adapt and should have acted sooner, but were too arrogant to do so.

So I hardly think your "swallow analogy" is relevant. Tesla isn't coming, it's here now,and the US is just a preview of what they will also do in Europe and the Far East. Others just aren't ready, and I'm not sure what "primed to arrive" means in practice - only JLR have actually launched a comparable EV, and are struggling with their production, as they haven't sorted out their supply chain: the others are slower and have been much worse at actually making this happen.

So to quote this latest Autocar Tesla review:

"Any rival wanting to beat the Model 3 is going to have to be very good indeed"

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review...yY9ZzeS8dDDnws
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Autos Autos everywhere...
(1) 2015 Tesla Model S: (was 85D, now 90D ). Silent and deadly, and very fast... But not as fast as Ian's M3P-
(2) 2002 D2 S8 Final Edition: Bulletproof and faultless: Brilliant Black with Extended (Red!) Leather. Three-times winner of Best D2 1st prize
(3) 1997 Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo: Scots (! ) Green. Fragile, but beautiful.
(4) 2010 Fiat Panda 100HP. White Pandamonium (Final Edition!!). Pure old-fashioned 6-speed go-karting.
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  #24  
Old 7th November 2018, 02:42 PM
Reffro Reffro is offline
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Quote:
Firstly, you seem to have conceded the point that they are the biggest selling car (not "truck", or whatever the US call the F-150 types of pick-ups etc, which isn't really relevant in other major territories, or to Tesla) in the US, using US data. You then seem to suggest that the data is simplistic or inaccurate is some way, though it looked to me like it was referencing industry data in the table that I posted. Which is it? Maybe you could clarify to help those of use who (unlike you) don't work with this data daily and sell it to the established ICE car sellers?.
OK, in the USA, the market is separated between Cars and Trucks. Cars are just that, Trucks include both Pickups/Vans and most importantly SUV's. SUV's are considered to be Cars everywhere else, so if you read the article and think that they are comparing apples with apples with a global view of the markets (or even a British view), you'd be misled. If you include the SUV's in your analysis of Car sales/revenue, which I would, then Model 3 got trumped by RAV4 in both sales and revenue.

Quote:
Secondly, in your reply you've not disputed or mentioned my comment about Tesla being more profitable than any other manufacturer, yet your original point seemed to at least imply that they couldn't make a profit and were going to fail? -
OK, lets put this to bed. Tesla are not the most profitable OEM and they are not even close. The article talks about margin on the Model 3, not profit. Yes , Tesla have reported great margins on the Model 3, they produced in Q3 2018, but they sold far fewer vehicles overall.

By the way this is what Porsche did for a great many years, small numbers with huge margins. But Porsche did it without the debt mountain, so didn't need to meet junk bond debt repayments etc etc.

Quote:
Thirdly, your point about debt is interesting, but again feels a bit selective really, as you've not mentioned the fact that - unlike Tesla - other major US companies had to be rescued from going under by government bailouts, costing tens of billions.

So, whilst Tesla might have been on shaky ground in the early days (around when I ordered my Model S ), I think it's hard to argue that this is the case any more
Tesla were only building the Roadster at about the time the bailouts happened. GM and Chrysler took billions, Ford didn't need to, but did receive some loans. GM and Chrysler are seen as being to big to be allowed to fail, Tesla probably isn't...In the event of a default on existing debt, the company may continue is some form or other, but it will be investors and banks that end up taking a haircut.

At the time you ordered your car I could argue Tesla were in a far better financial situation, as they have continued to burn through loans and investors' cash since then.

Quote:
However, the ICE supply chains, including the big manufacturing plants and the retail chains that got fat and lazy over the last decade, are the ones who will really struggle to adapt and should have acted sooner, but were too arrogant to do so.
Possibly or even probably, but the big OEM's are going to adapt or die. Hence the competition is only going to get more intense. Tesla's revenues are built on the fact that they are selling highly optioned Model 3 cars, not the $35,000 car they promoted, it remains to be seen how many people who got on board with the deposits, will continue with a purchase of a vehicle at $60,000+.

Quote:
So I hardly think your "swallow analogy" is relevant. Tesla isn't coming, it's here now,and the US is just a preview of what they will also do in Europe and the Far East. Others just aren't ready, and I'm not sure what "primed to arrive" means in practice - only JLR have actually launched a comparable EV, and are struggling with their production, as they haven't sorted out their supply chain: the others are slower and have been much worse at actually making this happen.

So to quote this latest Autocar Tesla review:

"Any rival wanting to beat the Model 3 is going to have to be very good indeed"
I'm not arguing the Model 3 is not a good car. It is, but then again the car reviewed is not $35,000 and is not on sale anywhere but the USA for now. Jaguar do seem to be struggling, but then so did Tesla, hence the recently announced FBI investigations, which I don't believe will come to much, but do highlight the struggles Tesla had, particularly when they kept promising so much.

I avoided the use of flash in the pan and went with one swallow instead. Others are struggling, Tesla is still not meeting its own bold projections, remember that people who put a deposit on a Model 3 in the UK were to have started to receive their cars by now.....Reading the website today and understanding how they have made similar promises in the past, you are looking at 2020 before they get here, with no mention of pricing yet.

There are still many challenges to be overcome, I'm of the opinion that they are only going to get bigger.
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  #25  
Old 10th November 2018, 07:12 AM
tintin tintin is offline
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Oh dear. It looks like you're keen to continue the to'ing and fro'ing on this thread, without really getting the original point of it, which is that Tesla has succeeded in completely changing the game on this, and is also - as a company - succeeding way beyond where 99% of people thought they would get to.

I'm happy that I've dealt with your original point below, and that your comments since then haven't really made any difference to the core point in my original post, and also that I've dealt with those comments too: I could continue this by explaining why margin vs profit isn't a significant difference for Tesla, give details of how Ford downsized to deal with it's strategic errors in the same bailout decade, point out why a RAV4 isn't really relevant to Tesla, or that the Porsche/VW relationship makes the Porsche comparison a bit "apples and pears" , or any of your other small points of detail in your last post, but I'm not sure that's going to make any real difference to you (and will probably bore everyone else on here ).

I'll just say this to close this - when I ordered my Model S in 2015, the threats to Tesla were existential, not operational, and VAG was talking about investing 20Bn+ in new ICE products. That's completely changed now, there will be fallout from existing ICE manufacturers, Tesla won't be going away, and the car industry is completely changing as a result of them.

Maybe if you turn up to our annual meet one year we can continue this discussion over a beer - but I think the automotive world may have moved a long way by then, and you may be driving an EV


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffro View Post
Tesla are neither the biggest selling Manufacturer in the USA let alone North America, nor do they have the highest revenues of any manufacturer. 17th by volume, 16th by revenue for Cars in the USA.

They may have huge market capitalisation, but they have bugger all cash left, huge liabilities and only squeaked a profit in Q3 2018.... and a whole of load of precedents pointing to a big fail.

Tesla got a march on the product, but haven't actually profited from it, nor are they likely too. The competition becomes so fierce from now on that Tesla will struggle to maintain a margin if they don't sort out their production, oh and did I mention the debt!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reffro View Post
OK, in the USA, the market is separated between Cars and Trucks. Cars are just that, Trucks include both Pickups/Vans and most importantly SUV's. SUV's are considered to be Cars everywhere else, so if you read the article and think that they are comparing apples with apples with a global view of the markets (or even a British view), you'd be misled. If you include the SUV's in your analysis of Car sales/revenue, which I would, then Model 3 got trumped by RAV4 in both sales and revenue.

OK, lets put this to bed. Tesla are not the most profitable OEM and they are not even close. The article talks about margin on the Model 3, not profit. Yes , Tesla have reported great margins on the Model 3, they produced in Q3 2018, but they sold far fewer vehicles overall.

By the way this is what Porsche did for a great many years, small numbers with huge margins. But Porsche did it without the debt mountain, so didn't need to meet junk bond debt repayments etc etc.

Tesla were only building the Roadster at about the time the bailouts happened. GM and Chrysler took billions, Ford didn't need to, but did receive some loans. GM and Chrysler are seen as being to big to be allowed to fail, Tesla probably isn't...In the event of a default on existing debt, the company may continue is some form or other, but it will be investors and banks that end up taking a haircut.

At the time you ordered your car I could argue Tesla were in a far better financial situation, as they have continued to burn through loans and investors' cash since then.

Possibly or even probably, but the big OEM's are going to adapt or die. Hence the competition is only going to get more intense. Tesla's revenues are built on the fact that they are selling highly optioned Model 3 cars, not the $35,000 car they promoted, it remains to be seen how many people who got on board with the deposits, will continue with a purchase of a vehicle at $60,000+.

I'm not arguing the Model 3 is not a good car. It is, but then again the car reviewed is not $35,000 and is not on sale anywhere but the USA for now. Jaguar do seem to be struggling, but then so did Tesla, hence the recently announced FBI investigations, which I don't believe will come to much, but do highlight the struggles Tesla had, particularly when they kept promising so much.

I avoided the use of flash in the pan and went with one swallow instead. Others are struggling, Tesla is still not meeting its own bold projections, remember that people who put a deposit on a Model 3 in the UK were to have started to receive their cars by now.....Reading the website today and understanding how they have made similar promises in the past, you are looking at 2020 before they get here, with no mention of pricing yet.

There are still many challenges to be overcome, I'm of the opinion that they are only going to get bigger.
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Autos Autos everywhere...
(1) 2015 Tesla Model S: (was 85D, now 90D ). Silent and deadly, and very fast... But not as fast as Ian's M3P-
(2) 2002 D2 S8 Final Edition: Bulletproof and faultless: Brilliant Black with Extended (Red!) Leather. Three-times winner of Best D2 1st prize
(3) 1997 Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo: Scots (! ) Green. Fragile, but beautiful.
(4) 2010 Fiat Panda 100HP. White Pandamonium (Final Edition!!). Pure old-fashioned 6-speed go-karting.
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  #26  
Old 12th November 2018, 11:10 AM
Reffro Reffro is offline
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Maybe if you turn up to our annual meet one year we can continue this discussion over a beer - but I think the automotive world may have moved a long way by then, and you may be driving an EV
If I'm free to join, I would look forward to sharing a beer with you as always.

As for the EV, not going to happen for me and a great many people, now or in the near future, I don't have a house with a driveway, therefore no reliable & convenient way to charge the car. I'll stick with my diseasel leased smoker and fast bike combination for a good while yet. Though given the right circumstances I would consider a move to Plug-in Hybrid or EV driving, but living in a apartment, precludes that being a possibility for me and many others within city environments, who would benefit most from such a move.
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  #27  
Old 12th November 2018, 11:14 AM
MikkiJayne MikkiJayne is offline
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I can lend you a D2 if you want to join us in Cornwall next year
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  #28  
Old 29th November 2018, 10:08 PM
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briang9 briang9 is offline
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Originally Posted by briang9 View Post
The mainstream manufacturers have been waiting in the wings,
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-tron-gt/39208

Just for info..

Don't want to kick off the whole ICE v EV debate again please, think we know on here who are evangelistic about EVs and those who are not, and I suspect no amount of debate (factual or otherwise) will change that
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  #29  
Old 29th November 2018, 10:49 PM
tintin tintin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briang9 View Post
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...-tron-gt/39208

Just for info..

Don't want to kick off the whole ICE v EV debate again please, think we know on here who are evangelistic about EVs and those who are not, and I suspect no amount of debate (factual or otherwise) will change that
"the future is actually about 18 months away. That's because this e-tron GT make production in 2020". Yawwwnnnn.....that's another 18 months away. Again.

Funny how time seems to stand still for some of these Tesla killers .

It looks like a Model S to me, which will have been on sale for 8 (eight!!) years by the time this lookalike arrives.

Turning automotive supertankers round seems to take a very long time - 2020 is when the Tesla Roadster will (allegedly...) go on sale.

Keep up ICECo's....
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Autos Autos everywhere...
(1) 2015 Tesla Model S: (was 85D, now 90D ). Silent and deadly, and very fast... But not as fast as Ian's M3P-
(2) 2002 D2 S8 Final Edition: Bulletproof and faultless: Brilliant Black with Extended (Red!) Leather. Three-times winner of Best D2 1st prize
(3) 1997 Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo: Scots (! ) Green. Fragile, but beautiful.
(4) 2010 Fiat Panda 100HP. White Pandamonium (Final Edition!!). Pure old-fashioned 6-speed go-karting.
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  #30  
Old 29th November 2018, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by tintin View Post

It looks like a Model S to me,
It's based on a Porsche Taycan, another advantage traditional maufacturers have is they can share platforms..

Oh and they may keep adding 18 months to their timescales as they know there is little demand yet for EVs and they can continue to make lots of money selling ICE cars
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Last edited by briang9; 29th November 2018 at 11:35 PM.
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