Handbrake failure after new caliper fitted

[Quattrodave]

Afternoon all,

I had a leaking OSR caliper on my 2007 4.2 FSI so took it to my local garage with a recon unit to change over, which they did no problem.

The issue arose when they went to re-engage the hand brake - nothing happened to either OS or NS calipers. They plugged in the old caliper and tried to get the handbrake to work but again nothing.

They called me and said they'd booked it into a specialist (ABtech in totton) who today have run a diagnostics on it and not identified anything. I've now just had to give the green light for them to look more into it and identify what's wrong and why.

Two things:
1. Does anyone have an idea what could have happened? Could, as my local garage have suggested, there been an internal fault with the caliper which has fried the parking ECM or could it be that my local garage, who aren't Audi specialists or even particularly high tech, have buggered something? Would I (read Abtech) be able to tell whether they'd done something wrong?

2. If it turns out that the replacement (warranted) caliper is faulty and has caused the ECM to die I will go after the supplier for costs. Aware that they will simply say bugger off and I'll have to go legal on them but it's looking like heading towards £1,000 to diagnose and repair a job that should have only cost £250 including the caliper!

I'm currently on day 5 with no car (and no courtesy car) and won't get it back until Thursday at the earliest so needless to say I'm livid at this moment in tim!

Thoughts & advice most welcome.

[Architex_mA8tey]

Did they follow the procedures in the guide document below or not?

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=9907&d=1420367344

[Quattrodave]

I'm going to go with, no!

They're a small garage that I've sent 12 or so of my cars to (I get bored quickly) and never really had a problem with them, but as they said themselves they're not really set up for modern complex cars but said they had the software and skills needed to change a caliper (which was an easy two bolt job before EPB's became all the craze!)

[paulrstaylor]

To be fair to them it isn't unusual for the failing calliper to also necessitate a replacement ECU also, the ECU is in reality a high current driver for the calipers, which over time does suffer degradation. When the motor fails and gets gunked up it draws more current than designed for and that could affect the ECU itself, which might not manifest itself until your replace the caliper motor.

On my old car, I had to swap both motors and the ECU to get rid of the light, and that was following the correct procedure :mad:

So maybe not all their fault - if it is any consolation, the ECU wasn't the most expensive of parts from memory

[Quattrodave]

To be fair to them it isn't unusual for the failing calliper to also necessitate a replacement ECU also, the ECU is in reality a high current driver for the calipers, which over time does suffer degradation. When the motor fails and gets gunked up it draws more current than designed for and that could affect the ECU itself, which might not manifest itself until your replace the caliper motor.

On my old car, I had to swap both motors and the ECU to get rid of the light, and that was following the correct procedure :mad:

So maybe not all their fault - if it is any consolation, the ECU wasn't the most expensive of parts from memory

Thanks for the comment and feedback. I genuinely just want to know if it's someones fault then who and if not, then reassurance that it's just one of those things (like you've just alluded to!)

I didn't have a parking brake light, I just knew the seal was leaking (about 125ml every two weeks) but the handbrake worked fine up until the caliper was changed.

I had the forethought to ask what the cost of a replacement part is, £252, presumably plus vat. which on top of the £55 for the original garage to fit, plus £112 for diagnositcs and at least £150 for additional diagnostics makes for a hugely expensive caliper change!!! Especially when quoted only £55!

[paulrstaylor]

Yeah, £55 was never going to happen I'm afraid, the issue with an A8 is that when something fails it tends to be more expensive, but there are lots of redeeming features too!

From memory, I paid ~£200 per caliper/motor and ~£100 for the ECU and fitted myself, calipers were refurb form ECP and the ECU was a dealer item. Put new pads on also which wasn't really needed but at ~£40 made sense.

It maybe the messed it up, it maybe not their fault - in any case I hope you can get it put right with minimum fuss and expense and get back to enjoying the car +++

[Quattrodave]

Cheers. I hope so too. Only good news is I'm back on my bike to cycle to work whilst it's getting worked on!

If it settles at say £250-300 (plus caliper cost) I'll accept it and move on, after all the car was the bargain of the century!

Can't really fault the A8, save for the worlds biggest boot in which nothing fits! But I did come from a C6 RS6 which swallowed up everything (then mushed it all into a blob against the tailgate whenever I even looked at the throttle!)

My dh bike won't fit, most big boxes don't fit, even our old ironing board didn't fit into the boot!

[paulrstaylor]

I know exactly what you mean about the boot, the compromise of a saloon when you are used to an avant! My only fix was a tow bar and a trailer :mad:

Still well worth it +++

[Quattrodave]

Brake ECU be frazzled so I've got a replacement one on its way and to be sure that it wasn't the ebay sourced recon caliper that killed the ECU (which is what the specialist is suggesting) I've given the go ahead for the garage to fit a new TRW unit.

So now just to get a refund on the ebay caliper and suck up a bill of £600 for a bloody caliper change :S

[Mechcanico Lee]

Can i put a whole new take on this , it's not a witch hunt or against you in any way .

So you supplied your local garage with a caliper from eBay ( unknown sources ) they fitted the caliper and all went well , a week later you pressed the brake the pedal hit the floor , you crash into the car infront smashing it to bits injuring the occupants .
Police come ,you say you had brake failure , police impound car for inspection and find caliper has cracked down the bleed nipple threads .with major fluid loss

You say such and such garage just replaced it for me , investigation officer goes to local garage , local garage owners says "yeah customer supplied his own parts so not my problem " Arrr but it is his problem now ,as he was the last 'expert' to have worked on said vehicle .
So garage owner speaks to his liability insurance man ..... liability insurance man says ," yes send in receipts of the part you supplied and your fitting invoice "..... which he does not have .
Liability insurance say null and void claim no pay out you did not supply the part , where does it go from here , two damaged cars and injurys claim from both party's ??


You will find that garages who fit customers own parts will stop doing so sooner or later as liability insurance is stipulating the issue of fiting parts supplied by the owner will not be covered in the event of a claim .

[tc4332]

Nicely put Lee.
Times have changed. Everyone is now affected by our "Blame and Claim" society.
Great shame in a lot of ways, but then life has changed. We just have to be more careful and be aware of all the pitfalls.
I think I had better revert to being a turtle and withdraw my neck :mexicanwave:

[Quattrodave]

Can i put a whole new take on this , it's not a witch hunt or against you in any way .

So you supplied your local garage with a caliper from eBay ( unknown sources ) they fitted the caliper and all went well , a week later you pressed the brake the pedal hit the floor , you crash into the car infront smashing it to bits injuring the occupants .
Police come ,you say you had brake failure , police impound car for inspection and find caliper has cracked down the bleed nipple threads .with major fluid loss

You say such and such garage just replaced it for me , investigation officer goes to local garage , local garage owners says "yeah customer supplied his own parts so not my problem " Arrr but it is his problem now ,as he was the last 'expert' to have worked on said vehicle .
So garage owner speaks to his liability insurance man ..... liability insurance man says ," yes send in receipts of the part you supplied and your fitting invoice "..... which he does not have .
Liability insurance say null and void claim no pay out you did not supply the part , where does it go from here , two damaged cars and injurys claim from both party's ??


You will find that garages who fit customers own parts will stop doing so sooner or later as liability insurance is stipulating the issue of fiting parts supplied by the owner will not be covered in the event of a claim .

I see little point in your post other than to be inflammatory? Please explain what the point is if not for that?

Modern society in this regard is ****, there must always be someone at fault and someone must always pay and plenty of people like yourself who look for areas where solicitors can come and f*ck up a situation. You're not a solicitor are you?


Anywho, I don't want to be drawn into that.

£724 is the total cost to me. ECU blew for whatever reason, potentially suspect caliper, so I've returned the caliper and the specialist sourced their own caliper and ecu, so yay I get to BLAME THE GARAGE 100% when my car crashes in a brake failure related fireball in a weeks time, that makes me feel so much better!

Geez, some people really do know how to put a real downer on a situation, I was looking forward to getting my car back too!

[Mechcanico Lee]

Inflammatory ??I'm a forum member just like you and will try to help anyone I can on here , why should I revel from someone's woe ??

Solicitor ? No , I'm a car technician and worked in an independent garage for near thirty years

I'm generalising here ..... why do people go on eBay or where ever and find there own parts ....main reason is to save some money ....why are some of the eBay parts cheaper than others ....main reason .... they are sub standard , corners have been cut , quality control is much poorer if any .

I was on a technical seminar the other week with Lemforder suspension components , they had dozens of Chinese copy suspension parts...ball joints suspension arms and so on that where down right horrendous in there construction

So folk buy said parts then talk them to there local garage and ask them to fit them , how can the repairer warrant a job and give due care and diligence to an item that they have no clue where it's come from .

As I said in my other post the book stops with the repairer if something goes wrong ....and it does .

Quick story
Friend of mine in Kent has his own independent garage , guy comes in off the street asks him will he fit a suspension arm to the front of his E class Merc , he wouldn't of done in normally but against his better judgement he fits it to 'help the guy out ' , job done sends the guy on his way .
Couple of weeks later an insurance engineer calls at my friends place asking about the job on the Merc , he ask what's the issue .... the front suspension had collapsed the car has veered over the road and knocked someone's garden wall down and done extensive damage to the car . The ball joint had completely pulled out of the socket by the way
My friend thinking well the owner supplied the part ' not my problem then '
How wrong was he , little later, solicitors letter through the door for court proceedings against the repairer for damage to the car and rebuild costs off the wall , hire car costs , injurys and stress .... all the usual solicitor rubbish .

My friend speaks to his insurance for liability .... yes you guessed they will
Not pay out as he did not supply the part , long story short the owner of the car wins the case , judge said words to the effect , the repairer is the expert in his experience he should of known better , the owner could of made that suspension arm in his garden shed , £16k bill for repair to the car , rebuild the wall , hire car costs , but he was ' helping the guy out ' after all so silver lining and so on

Suppose what I'm getting at here Dave is that repairers who fit customers own parts are leaving them selves exposed if things go wrong , suspension arms , ball joints , any braking parts are all safety critical .

Can I just ask and be honest ,the caliper you got off eBay that may or may not seen the ecm off is there a big difference in the price of the specialist TRW caliper .
Again I'm out here to gloat over someone's bad news , just trying to get across how it works from the repairers point of view .

[Quattrodave]

Nope didn't save a lot of money on caliper over ECP or trade sourced. The ONLY reason I sourced one myself (TRW so oem spec) is because my local specialist who I originally took it too was so busy that they didn't manage/bother to get a price for a caliper so I figured I'd fit it myself (as I've built a UR engine and done plenty of maintenance before) only to realise that I needed software and coding to change an otherwise simple to change part, so I went to my local non specialist garage with caliper in hand and asked if they could fit it as I don't have the necessary software, which they didn't have a problem with.

So I wasn't trying to be cheap as you may be thinking, I just wanted to get my leaky caliper changed quickly before the leak got worse.

[Mechcanico Lee]

Fair comment , hope you get the car back soon as , these things happen in life , grin and bare it and move on .
UR engine .... just had to google that .... Toyota v8 motor , only ever done basic service work on them pretty strong as a rule the Toyota stuff

Best regards
Lee

[Quattrodave]

Inflammatory ??I'm a forum member just like you and will try to help anyone I can on here , why should I revel from someone's woe ??

Solicitor ? No , I'm a car technician and worked in an independent garage for near thirty years

I'm generalising here ..... why do people go on eBay or where ever and find there own parts ....main reason is to save some money ....why are some of the eBay parts cheaper than others ....main reason .... they are sub standard , corners have been cut , quality control is much poorer if any .

I was on a technical seminar the other week with Lemforder suspension components , they had dozens of Chinese copy suspension parts...ball joints suspension arms and so on that where down right horrendous in there construction

So folk buy said parts then talk them to there local garage and ask them to fit them , how can the repairer warrant a job and give due care and diligence to an item that they have no clue where it's come from .

As I said in my other post the book stops with the repairer if something goes wrong ....and it does .

Quick story
Friend of mine in Kent has his own independent garage , guy comes in off the street asks him will he fit a suspension arm to the front of his E class Merc , he wouldn't of done in normally but against his better judgement he fits it to 'help the guy out ' , job done sends the guy on his way .
Couple of weeks later an insurance engineer calls at my friends place asking about the job on the Merc , he ask what's the issue .... the front suspension had collapsed the car has veered over the road and knocked someone's garden wall down and done extensive damage to the car . The ball joint had completely pulled out of the socket by the way
My friend thinking well the owner supplied the part ' not my problem then '
How wrong was he , little later, solicitors letter through the door for court proceedings against the repairer for damage to the car and rebuild costs off the wall , hire car costs , injurys and stress .... all the usual solicitor rubbish .

My friend speaks to his insurance for liability .... yes you guessed they will
Not pay out as he did not supply the part , long story short the owner of the car wins the case , judge said words to the effect , the repairer is the expert in his experience he should of known better , the owner could of made that suspension arm in his garden shed , £16k bill for repair to the car , rebuild the wall , hire car costs , but he was ' helping the guy out ' after all so silver lining and so on

Suppose what I'm getting at here Dave is that repairers who fit customers own parts are leaving them selves exposed if things go wrong , suspension arms , ball joints , any braking parts are all safety critical .

Can I just ask and be honest ,the caliper you got off eBay that may or may not seen the ecm off is there a big difference in the price of the specialist TRW caliper .
Again I'm out here to gloat over someone's bad news , just trying to get across how it works from the repairers point of view .


I figured your point was coming from either personal or someone you knows experience.

Sorry to hear your friend got stiffed. In your example above it points out some major issues with modern society:
1. The merc owner either had a malfunctioning conscience when they decided upon the legal route, or perhaps wasn't told that the garage wouldn't be liable for failure of the part, only the fitting of said part and assumed that the costs would be covered under standard liability insurance;
2. Some solicitors are only too willing to park their morals and jump into legal proceedings on the most minor of technicalities. In October a guy I sold my old car to tried sue me for £1k more than he paid for it citing a multitude of problems with an 11 year old 150k beemer which were all explained prior to him buying and driving away the car (including stating oil leak from engine when mot certificate which was 3 days old stating oil leak which he read infront of me before paying!). Solicitors were involved and eventually I won but then he switched tactics and wrote to me directly requesting a full refund citing his disability on being unable to fully inspect the car (and I quote "due to my disability I was physically unable to unfold the mot certificate"!!). It scared the bejesus out of me for the six weeks or so that it went on.
3. Judges have awarded some ludicrous cases in recent years. Whilst researching my legal position on the above point I found examples where the solicitor has found in favour of the buyer in a private sale for failures that no one except a mechanic who's regularly inspecting their car would have identified until it went pop.

[Quattrodave]

Fair comment , hope you get the car back soon as , these things happen in life , grin and bare it and move on .
UR engine .... just had to google that .... Toyota v8 motor , only ever done basic service work on them pretty strong as a rule the Toyota stuff

Best regards
Lee

Thanks Lee.

Life does indeed like to shovel that smelly brown stuff at us every now and then! But as you say I've just sucked it up, paid the bill (sobbed a little) and I'm getting on with it.

Sorry when I said ur I meant UR Quattro, WR engine, 2.1 turbo. One and only engine I've built and my god are some bolts virtually impossible to reach (i.e. lower inlet manifold bolts!). Car sold last year though, too time and money consuming!

[Delboy]

Im going to take a wild guess given his name and the fact he's here on an Audi forum that he's referring to the engine from the rally legend, but perhaps not the car in the following vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDRkHXMHqFo

[Mechcanico Lee]

Is that the 5 cyl jobby , remember doing turbo changes on them donkeys years ago , used to take headlight out , Audi 200 s , manifolds used to crack iirc

Best sounding rally car ever them 5 cyls +++

[Mechcanico Lee]

150 k miles 11 years old beemer
People expect to much , things go wrong , mechanical things need more care as they get older , what do they expect , deal with it .... write a letter of complaint to bmw stating there 150 k miles 11 year old car has some issues and see if they will do anything about it pfffft !

Hehe , hey saying that , few years back we had a bmw 740 the v8 petrol , they had issues with the plating coming off the bores and loosing compression , car was about 6 years old or so , we spoke to bmw about it and they said get it to them , they put a full brand new engine in it free of charge ,it was around 7 grand , owner was over the moon , that's superb customer service .

[ainarssems]

What happened to 'Innocent unless proven guilty'? How can they ask the repairer to pay damages unless it's proven without a reasonable doubt that fault occurred because of poor fitting. Expert or no expert on many parts you cannot tell quality or condition without destructive disassembly. I understand a need to put it on invoice that part was supplied by owner so that there is a record of it if needed in future and maybe a disclaimer signed by owner that they understand that fitter does not take any responsibility for the part. And the owner should keep record where they bought part.

Where does it leave second hand parts, can you as a garage buy and fit second hand parts? And what happens if you as individual without public liability insurance fit a faulty part or don't fit it correctly yourself and crash because of that?

I have actually been refused by garage to fit used tyres for me because they said they cannot guarantee safety of used tyres, did not even want to fit them when I said they are my own tyres that I took of my car in the autumn when fitting winter tyres and now just want to put them back on car for summer season. Not a big issue, I just went to another garage but if everybody keeps doing that it will mean you cannot swap seasonal tyres unless you store them at the garage that does the fitting and pay them for storage.

I do most of repairs myself and many parts that I buy new are genuine parts from Germany or elsewhere abroad because they are a lot cheaper there. I cannot expect garage to spend their time hunting the best deal and setup accounts at supplier abroad and just get the 1 part for me. That would mean extra expenses and maybe even lesser part than I would get myself if I am forced to get the part by fitting garage who would only check a couple of suppliers they use.

The merc owner either had a malfunctioning conscience when they decided upon the legal route

I's possible that owner claimed on their comprehensive car insurance policy as accident, insurance company investigated, saw the failed recently replaced arm and decided to go after fitter/part manufacturer to recover costs.

[Quattrodave]

What happened to 'Innocent unless proven guilty'? How can they ask the repairer to pay damages unless it's proven without a reasonable doubt that fault occurred because of poor fitting. Expert or no expert on many parts you cannot tell quality or condition without destructive disassembly. I understand a need to put it on invoice that part was supplied by owner so that there is a record of it if needed in future and maybe a disclaimer signed by owner that they understand that fitter does not take any responsibility for the part. And the owner should keep record where they bought part.

Where does it leave second hand parts, can you as a garage buy and fit second hand parts? And what happens if you as individual without public liability insurance fit a faulty part or don't fit it correctly yourself and crash because of that?

I have actually been refused by garage to fit used tyres for me because they said they cannot guarantee safety of used tyres, did not even want to fit them when I said they are my own tyres that I took of my car in the autumn when fitting winter tyres and now just want to put them back on car for summer season. Not a big issue, I just went to another garage but if everybody keeps doing that it will mean you cannot swap seasonal tyres unless you store them at the garage that does the fitting and pay them for storage.

I do most of repairs myself and many parts that I buy new are genuine parts from Germany or elsewhere abroad because they are a lot cheaper there. I cannot expect garage to spend their time hunting the best deal and setup accounts at supplier abroad and just get the 1 part for me. That would mean extra expenses and maybe even lesser part than I would get myself if I am forced to get the part by fitting garage who would only check a couple of suppliers they use.



I's possible that owner claimed on their comprehensive car insurance policy as accident, insurance company investigated, saw the failed recently replaced arm and decided to go after fitter/part manufacturer to recover costs.

Fair point on merc guy, I read into what was said as his insurance refused based on results of investigation from garage so took the legal route on his own.

It really is sad isn't it, our whole society is now guilty until proven innocent and even then there's often a lingering suspicion that they're still guilty.

There are examples where parts simply aren't available. Take my URQ for example. Audi, being as 'customer' focussed as they stopped manufacturing parts for the URQ in 1997 despite leaning heavily on the car for marketing purposes they offer zero help when it comes to keeping these rare beasts on the road. Consequently garages could never source parts and I had to buy them, often direct from germany on the dreaded ebay.

Look at car dismantlers, if all garages only insist upon fitting new or recon sourced parts that they've bought then a lot of dismantlers would overnight become economically un-viable which in turn will result in more cars being crushed and more waste due to non recycling. One way to bolster the manufacturing industry (in other countries) mind!

[Mechcanico Lee]

Mmmm interesting Aiansrssems I you fitted a part yourself and it went wrong causing an accident , I suppose the other party would claim off your insurance , if it was found that a part you fitted caused the accident could it revoke the claim .... I don't know , I'm not an expert in the legal field .

My friend in Kent had the RMI fighting his corner ,which is a big body in the motoring field but still lost the case , the judge views it as the repairer is the expert in his field and should know better ..
When the parts come through known suppliers. e.g. Euro car parts or Andrew Pages and something goes wrong ,the supplier let's say Lemforder because they are a big company have got the money to pay any damages claim , if the parts come from un known sources Ting Tong land can it be pursued .... I don't know ??
Like you say with your winter tyres, the tyre bay cannot guarantee the safety of them , I have no dought that your tyres will be tip top and quality as all the members on here are reasonable folk and under stand about quality with parts and the likes , but what about the cheap skate bloke who gets some tyres out of the scrap yard that have sat in oil and mud for ever and he takes them to the same tyre bay to be fitted and the tyre wall blows out and he crashes , what's the first thing he says to the police on scene "such and such tyre bay only just fitted them for me"
Before you know it a solicitors letters through there door and if it goes to court you can be sure the judge will blame the tyre bay ....they should have known better !!
Like already been said "where there's blame there's a claim " culture , someone's going to cop for it ..... it's a bit sad really .

We used to fit owners own parts but after my friend got stung we stopped we just have to watch our back all the time , every week we get folk coming through the door asking us to fit such and such , we have to decline , I've seen cambelt kits and water pumps in un named cardboard boxes ..... where the hell did that come from ?? .... Ting tong land again , we have folk coming asking us to do oil and filter changes bringing their own parts ........ Wix oil filters ..... Wix the worst of the worst !! And Morrisons finest Glug 1 oil ...... this is not some Renault Megane owner ..... 59 plate Merc GL !!
Can you imagine the tissue paper Wix filter breaking up and blocking the oil gallery knocking the crank out .... " yeah Prestige Garage just done my oil change and blew my engine up " that's why we decline .

Hey .... what about the ting tong glow plugs (supplied by the owner ) the garage down the road from us fitted to a combo van , the glow tip fell out after a week did a jig on top of the piston ends up stuck under a valve so piston gives it a kiss and bends the valve , then spits the tip down the exhaust manifold and it takes one of the turbo impeller blades off ..... it's not all bad news .....the ting tong glow plugs were £5 cheaper than the quality Bosch ones mind........

I have loads of other story's hehe ........ peace guys +++

[snapdragon]

Yes, as MANNOL oil say: The disappointment of poor quality lasts much longer than the joy of low prices.:D