Windscreen Wiper Failure

[YorkshireBloke]

Hi All,

It had to come... the fault that keeps my A8 off the road... :-(:-(

After obsessing about the gearbox, becoming expert on belt/water-pump/suspension/steering rack I have a fault with the windscreen wipers! :Confused:

The wipers failed in the vertical position, pointing bang up to the sky, not any problem before, although I had adjusted the rate of the intermittent wipe (surely a coincidence???).

I was driving and pulled over, moving the wipers down to the park position. There was no play, graunching noises or resistance of any kind.

When I bought the car I noticed a slight mark on the black trim around the windscreen and assumed that there had been an adjustment problem at some time.

Any how, where should I start to look? I guess an electrical fault should be the first place to look; yes?? :Confused:

Tips appreciated! +++

Robert

[MikkiJayne]

If there was no resistance to moving them down to the park position then either the linkage has come adrift from the motor, or the motor internal gears have disintegrated. They should be uncomfortably stiff (like 'ooer is it going to snap something') to move manually.

Often as the linkage wears the wipers over-sweep which tends to make the marks on the windscreen trim. Sadly all of this stuff is NLA for the D2 now I believe :mad:

With the bonnet open and the driver's side scuttle trim off you should be able to see whether the linkage is moving or not when you run the wipers. Have a look at that and go from there...

[IT]

Wiper failure is a common D2 complaint, hard to keep them on the shelves at a8parts, especially with winter approaching.....

If they have one, I'd get it snapped up quick +++

[David's8]

I guess from what you are saying there is no sound of the motor running? As MJ says, take the plastic cover off (at the rear drivers side of the engine bay) and see whats moving/running. Mine suffer from over sweeping which on full-speed is a pain and noisy nuisance.

[YorkshireBloke]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the tips, I will have to wait to the weekend to look, this wage-slavery lark is getting in the way of my hobbies... :tuttut:

If anyone else has D2 window wiper tips please feel free! +++

Robert

[The_Laird]

.

Often as the linkage wears the wipers over-sweep which tends to make the marks on the windscreen trim. Sadly all of this stuff is NLA for the D2 now I believe :mad:

.

That's what Audi will tell you!

However, my local Audi independent got me a new one a couple of months or so ago and A8 Parts also came up with one (may still be in stock).

A little patience and someone who gives a s**t can locate them.

[YorkshireBloke]

Cheers for that Laird! Less depressed now... :-(

Robert

[YorkshireBloke]

14830

Hi All,

So thanks for the tips, I got the scuttle off and tested to see what was happening. :-(

The motor is working but this "Conrod" (see picture) seems to have come away from a "pivot / shaft" (in pic) which is attached to a bar which operates the the driver's side spindle and thereafter the wiper arm (clearly you ain't dealing with no engineer here...:Confused:).

If anyone could help here I wonder,

1. Can this be drilled out in-situ and replaced with a a stainless bolt, spaced with nuts and washers?? ;)

2. If the whole assembly is removed would drilling out and putting in a Bolt work OR can just the conrod be bought? :rolleyes:

3. Or is this a "replace the whole assembly" job? :tuttut: Laird, do you still have the assembly with the burned out motor??

Thanks again for posts already; I just wouldn't have had a go without the explanatory post from B@??? (Name escapes me! Daren't risk losing what I have typed!) and the tip to "have a look to see what's happening"!

Robert

[MikkiJayne]

Eww thats pretty bad. It may be recoverable depending on whether the plastic is worn away from the rust or not.

First step is to clean all the rust off the ball - wire brush and wire wool, some coarse sandpaper if you have it. Clean it up as much as poss, then give it a good coating of grease. If you can get to the other side of the conrod (don't think you can with it in place tbh) then also clean out the plastic socket and grease that. Then, see if the plastic socket on the conrod will pop back on to the ball. It should take a lot of force - mole grips or water pump pliers are good to squeeze it back together.

If it pops together easily then chances are it'll just pop off again, in which case another assembly will be needed afaik. I'm not sure the parts are even listed separately tbh.

I've been wondering about remanufacturing these things using proper ball joints, but mine is in reasonable condition so not made any progress on that yet.

[David's8]

As MJ says its a press fit joint and perhaps may go back together after a clean. However, it does look pretty worn and may well be beyond repair. The only problem with a second hand unit is that the linkages may well be worn too and it will be a "slapper" at best. I exchanged a unit with The Laird and so at least one of his (the one with the good motor) will be worn - I am sure he wont mind me saying this :). The one I got from him has been OK but is now over-running on full speed. I have thought about ways to adjust the the linkages as the motor is OK and I am sure that the unit comes with motor/arms etc.

Sounds like MJ has a business opportunity upgrading wiper arm units!+++

[YorkshireBloke]

Hi,

Thanks for the tips, I didn't even know it was a ball joint... that is how coroded the thing is! :-(

If anyone knows human anatomy, the hip "ball" has a neck, that is what old people break, the neck of the femur (oh, and I'm not a Doctor as well as not being an engineer!).

The linkage had broken the neck of the femur, you can't see a ball at all... It must be in the plastic bushing". Will look of course.

OK. On planet earth there are lots of ball-joints so has anyone ever tried to re-purpose one for this linkage? If I find a source I'll pass it on! +++

But for now I will remove the whole assembly and check for wear elsewhere.

Also I'll do some research into Construction and Use regs. It may be an offence to drive without wipers... But on motorcycles if all wiring and fixings are removed for say, indicators, then that is OK, whereas a broken bulb is braking the law!! :Confused::ROFL:

Robert

[MikkiJayne]

Wow I see it now on a closer look! I hadn't even realised the ball had gone. Thats slightly harder to fix...

[YorkshireBloke]

Hi,

A quick search of ball and socket joints online shows lots of options,

http://www.automotioncomponents.co.uk/en/catalog/rotary/ball-socket-joints/ball-socket-joints/r3520

Early days yet but if I can't find a mechanism I think the removal of the old ball and socket joint (s?) and replacement will be possible. ;)

Anyone want to share a batch of 50?? :ROFL:

Robert

[Ameiseuk]

As with most manufacturers the common bits are mass produced by outside contractors. Audi arent going to have just a couple of thousand ball/socket combos produced just for a d2.
If the linkages are ok, the engineer in me would try and source the linkage off another vag group car of similar 'size' ... vw phaeton, wv passat or audi a6 spring to mind.
There are bound to be nos ones floating about on ebay or similar.
Use the ball/socket off these and repair your own. The bits are normally clipped in or worst case a circlip to hold them under the gunk.

[The_Laird]

I've got a couple of D2 wiper mechanisms, one more worn than the other. The plabn is to replace the ball joints (3 I think) and refit one to my car, then do the same to the mechanism that I take out.

That would leave me with 2 refurbished mechanisms - at least one of which I'd sell on.

I think David might be up for the same job, so that's 12 of your 50 joints accounted for!

Do you have a local engineering shop that would do it, or was that a joke?

[YorkshireBloke]

I've got a couple of D2 wiper mechanisms, one more worn than the other. The plabn is to replace the ball joints (3 I think) and refit one to my car, then do the same to the mechanism that I take out.

That would leave me with 2 refurbished mechanisms - at least one of which I'd sell on.

I think David might be up for the same job, so that's 12 of your 50 joints accounted for!

Do you have a local engineering shop that would do it, or was that a joke?


Hi,

My engineering shop is called Nick. I am swapping ridiculous tales and making outrageous plans with him tomorrow night (i.e. Going to the Pub).

Out of my regulator drinking pals he is the only one who MAKES anything; the rest of us move goods from place to place (shopkeepers :o), office-walahs (civil servants :tuttut:) and a psychiatric nurse (handy!+++).

Will report back! Soon, or.have to SORN A8 till fixed :-(

Robert

[YorkshireBloke]

Guru Nick Says...

"Nothing like when I was stuck on a crippled Merchant Vessel in the middle of the Indian Ocean"... :-(: :tuttut: :Confused:

But then most engineering fixes are not THAT difficult....:D

OK, I have homework set. 1. Remove wiper assembly. 2. Take whole lot to engineering merchants in middle of Barnsley (M C Mills). 3. Look daft, appeal for sympathy and someone with knowledge and 4. Buy bits or retreat with tips on where next to try. :ROFL:

Slightly sadly, will SORN magnificent beast on Sunday... Expected to do work in winter but not just yet. :(

Next week for that, will keep you all posted...

Robert

[YorkshireBloke]

Hi All,

Our Sponsors pulled a mech from a newly arrived car and it will be here by the weekend! +++

They said they would test and not list online as "I was a Forum User" - result! :ROFL:

I will try to interest my palls in refurbishing the old set, they may well keep another car on the road...

Laird, thanks for your interest, I will pass on any research on ball joints.

Robert

[YorkshireBloke]

Hi All,

Got a local independent to refit, cost nowt (£30 IS nowt on PlanetAudi!).

Now re-taxed and ready to give me some fun; thanks again for all tips and hints. :D

One tip the independent garage gave was that MGTFs had problems with wipers and one of their customers fixed his with proper rose joints! :love: Class. +++

Robert

[notorious]

Simple question: is the new genuine Audi replacement mechanism still available from Audi/TPS? If yes, I'd thank god, order the damn thing, replace and that will give me another dozen of happy years.

I'm thinking to change mine preventively and save old one in case it'll appear to be repairable in the future.

[MikkiJayne]

One tip the independent garage gave was that MGTFs had problems with wipers and one of their customers fixed his with proper rose joints!

That's exactly what I was thinking of, but currently mine is working. If anyone wants to send me a dead one to experiment with I'm game though :D

[David's8]

For the non-engineers amongst us, whats a "rose joint". It sounds rather like something you might get at a '60s music festival.

[HPsauce]

Isn't it just the normal type of robust ball joint you get on a track rod end for example?

[MikkiJayne]

Yeah pretty much:

http://berrisford.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/242x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/c/bcc4902.jpg

[David's8]

That looks like a more robust joint than the plasticky ball & socket used but how would it stand up to the wear and tear from the rotation though? Was the plastic stuff used for self lubrication?

[MikkiJayne]

Joints like that have various lining materials between the ball and socket. Cheapo ones are usually nylon and don't last long, but proper racecar joints have teflon which is self-lubricating and should outlast the car in that environment. They can be fitted with rubber dust boots too to protect them, but there may not be space in the mechanism for that.

I'd be looking at 8 or 10mm joints which have static load ratings high enough to support the weight of the whole car. The reason for making them that large is because the linkages themselves would have to be pretty strong to resist the twisting moment which the motor will impose on them. The stock ones look flimsy, but because of their folded shape they are immensely strong in compression and horizontal bending. A 6mm joint would happily take the forces involved, but the corresponding link arm would not be strong enough (that's an engineer's opinion rather than anything calculated). A 10mm ID thin wall tube ought to be plenty though. It all depends on how much room there is in there, and its been a while since I had mine off the car.

[Ameiseuk]

MGF wiper linkages were pretty easy to overhaul as their design allowed a m8 nut to be braised on to the end of the linkage rods and a suitable rose joint screwed in to place. The modern folded steel linkage rod is a bit more difficult to work with. You cant simply braise the rose joint on as the bushing inside gets melted by the heat and you end up with new 'worn' links straight away :(

[The_Laird]

That's exactly what I was thinking of, but currently mine is working. If anyone wants to send me a dead one to experiment with I'm game though :D

I've got a spare worn linkage that I can send if you PM an address to me. I'm happy to have it as an 'experiment' and understand that it might not work! :)

Actually, I don't need it, even if it does work so, if David pays the postage, he can have it if it works!

[YorkshireBloke]

Hi Guys (and Gals),

Sounds like I've stirred up summat here! +++

It must be worth us all who love the 8 to try to find ways of refurbishing bits that fail and are perhaps becoming very rare, eg wiper mechs. :-(

At the same time I respect the support that Our Sponsors give the site and would not want them to "chuck the teddy out of the pram"... :ROFL:

Any thoughts?

Robert

[HPsauce]

I can't see our sponsors getting upset about us fixing things that are rare as rocking horse poo anyway.
It keeps another car on the road for them to sell other bits to. +++

[ainarssems]

I just thought I will throw this in the mix - on our a6 the linkages are not that bad but the shafts on which wiper arms attach are worn, water gets in the bushes causes corrosion buildup that slows and even locks up movement. I clean them and grease with ACF50 2 or 3 times a year to keep them going otherwise resistance is too great and just triggers over current protection

[David's8]

The Laird donated his 3 spare windscreen wiper mechanisms to me today rather than get the house removers to move them to his new house so I thought I would start looking at the issues. Investigation of the three mechanisms appears to show that shows that any play in the system seems to be in the connections either end of the 2nd, short, arm between the gold coloured arm on the motor drive shaft and the first (driver side) wiper actuator.
Looking at one of the joints shows (2nd picture) shows considerable wear wear whereas the second one (despite the torn seal) seems to have more unworn metal. So I have re-assembled the good mechanism (with a good motor) using lots of EP grease in the joint, and will look to put this in the car as soon as I get it off the jacks in The Lairds garage where it is awaiting re-furbished calipers!!

[David's8]

Having finally got around to fitting this mechanism last night (well i was out the country for two months) and this one shows some strange behaviour. The parking position of the wipers appears to be in the middle of the arc swept by the wipers and not where it should be. i.e. at the bottom of the sweep :Confused:. I had made sure that the motor drive arm was bolted up with the mechanism in the same (parked) configuration as the one I removed. I need to investigate further today but any ideas??

[Architex_mA8tey]

The relevant pages of this manual might help adjust David?

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=9865&d=1420350463

[David's8]

Thanks - buts its not adjustment but where the system "thinks" the parked position is. At the moment it thinks its in the middle of the sweep!

[Architex_mA8tey]

Thanks - buts its not adjustment but where the system "thinks" the parked position is. At the moment it thinks its in the middle of the sweep!

Yes I get that but it must mean the mechanism has slipped around and needs adjusting surely?

[David's8]

I dont think it is the mechanism - but i might be wrong. Perhaps I wasnt clear but it sweeps either side of the parked position. If I were to adjust the mechanism so that the parked position is at the bottom of the screen it would try to clean the engine bay and half the screen :)

[MikkiJayne]

Neil is right - the motor spindle and arm are in the wrong place relative to each other.

Remove the wiper arms first. Then remove the arm from the motor spindle and run the motor through a complete cycle until it stops in its park position. Then, set the mechanism to 'parked' and put the arm back on the spindle and run it through a couple more cycles to make sure everything runs smoothly. Finally, put the arms back on in the park position.

:)

[David's8]

Neil is right - the motor spindle and arm are in the wrong place relative to each other.

Remove the wiper arms first. Then remove the arm from the motor spindle and run the motor through a complete cycle until it stops in its park position. Then, set the mechanism to 'parked' and put the arm back on the spindle and run it through a couple more cycles to make sure everything runs smoothly. Finally, put the arms back on in the park position.

:)

I did indeed try to do that but maybe I got it wrong. Its all off the car at the moment and I will do it again when the midges allow - its an overcast, damp day here and the midges are fierce :(.

[David's8]

I changed the motor to the one that just came off the car and, after mounting the spindle in exactly the same way, the wipers now function as they should+++ ...and it has got rid of the annoying, noisy over-run caused by slapping on the scuttle and the drivers side pillar. Result. (even had some rain in which to test it!)
So, just little wear on the various joints, when accumulated throughout the mechanism, causes significant oversweep which, in my case, amounted to some 30-50mm at either end of the sweep. I just hope that this refurbished -but still 2nd hand - mechanism lasts a few years.

[David's8]

That's exactly what I was thinking of, but currently mine is working. If anyone wants to send me a dead one to experiment with I'm game though :D

I now have 3 spare mechanisms having taken The Lairds off his hands when he was clearing out his garage. They are all "slappers" with ball joints showing differing but significant amounts of wear. If you want some to experiment on I'll bring them along to the meet MJ?

[MikkiJayne]

Yes please +++

[David's8]

Will do+++