2002 S8 Gearbox Question !!!!!

[Ricky22buk]

Morning all !!!!

My 2002 S8 started to play up a little yesterday. We always drive the car in drive mode. We never use sport, the steering wheel controls or even the plus / minus tiptronic controls (or whatever it is called).

The gearbox started slipping and the revs would rise but no drive. When you lift you foot off the throttle the drive would clonk back in again. I obviously know this can be a major problem with these cars and an oil and filter change might help but we have now tried driving the car by only using the gear stick in the plus minus mode and it drives perfect. Well that's assuming your driving easy. If you go for a spirited drive and the gearbox tries to change itself it still slips, but on everyday driving with you using the gear stick it's fine. Can anyone explain to me why that is, (ok when your selecting the gear with the gear stick but not when the car decides to change itself), and what that consequently tells me about my gearbox problem ?

All help appreciated !

[notorious]

Visit Chester Transmissions or Mackies in Glasgow.
Be ready for full gearbox rebuild.

[HPsauce]

That sounds similar to my occasional problem. Did you get some power, so you made progress but with higher revs, or no progress at all?

Mine would actually gain speed and change up through gears if you could give it time, and felt more like the handbrake was on, though revs were higher than usual.
A "blip" of the throttle and all returned to normal, but no clunk.

I had an oil and filter change some months ago.

[Adrian E]

Worth checking for fault codes. If bits of the gearbox are spinning at the 'wrong' speeds to what it expects because of an internal fault, it should be logged

As soon as it starts getting thumpy it tends to suggest a definite mechanical fault that will only be rectified by a full strip down :/

[Ricky22buk]

Its as if the car jumps out of gear for a second or two and there is no power. It then 'clonks' back into gear and accelerates as normal. It really only seems to be in the first couple of gears, and if you can get to four and fifth it all seems to go as normal.

Unfortunately if the gearbox does dies I can't see us throwing money at it and it could well be the end of a era for the D2 !!!!

Faults code some other night when I have a free minute......

[tintin]

Its as if the car jumps out of gear for a second or two and there is no power. It then 'clonks' back into gear and accelerates as normal. It really only seems to be in the first couple of gears, and if you can get to four and fifth it all seems to go as normal.

Unfortunately if the gearbox does dies I can't see us throwing money at it and it could well be the end of a era for the D2 !!!!

Faults code some other night when I have a free minute......

Sadly, and I know it's probably not what you want to hear, that how mine started before it went, and needed a rebuild….

[Ricky22buk]

Tin Tin....... how long did yours last before failing after the initial signs ?

[tintin]

Not long, unfortunately - probably a month or so, from memory, before I put it into Chester Auto Transmissions for a gearbox flush, which made it much worse!. I then drove it (very gingerly...) 200 miles to Mackies for a full rebuild, not cheap, but worth it, in my case at least.

[Ricky22buk]

Having now started to drive the car myself (it was my wife daily driver) I see that the car is completely fine and trouble free when its cold and its only when it warms up that it gives trouble in the first 3 gears.

Given that scenario would you bother going to the expense of changing the oil and filter or is it still likely to be terminal ? I take on board that tin tin said after his oil change the car deteriorated very quickly !!!!

[David's8]

I would give the guys at Mackies a call, decribe the symptoms and see what they recommend. I found them very helpful in discussing D2 gearboxes (they said that there is no particular issue with them that makes them inherently worse than any other box - as long as you dont believe the "sealed for life" gag).

95 Causewayside Street
Tollcross
Glasgow
G32 8LT

Telephone:
(+44) (0)141 778 4545

Fax:
(+44) (0)141 778 4476

Monday - Thursday
8:00 to 5:30
Friday
8:00 to 4:30

[The_Laird]

And a 'proper' gearbox service (hot oil flush and filter) is around £150 - so probably worth a try once you've had a achat with Mackies

[Ricky22buk]

Just for your own records guys the email below is the reply from Mackies. (I still don't think my car warrants the expense so just driving away until it gives up !!!!!)



The first things we look at is fault codes, oil condition, oil levels, does the oil smell burnt all these conditions can lead us to a conclusion with the transmission Richard, i.e if the oil level is low it can cause slippage, if the oil smells burnt then most likely that the fault lies internal with the transmission and needing to be reconditioned, if you have a diagnostic tool to code read the transmission system and there is codes relating to gear ratio or gear monitoring then the fault also lies internally.

Richard to reconditioned both transmission and torque converter is approx £1695.00+vat, then the costs to remove / refit the transmission + oils, it all adds up then you need to decide if the car merits the repair,

Richard without checking the car these tips i have given you are just hints to let you decide the cars fate or future.

Kind regards

John.

[tintin]

I think that's probably the sort of cautious response I'd expect from John @ Mackies - he's not seen your car, so is covering his options and being straight about the potential costs involved.

He's seen a lot of these cars, and has brought the performance of more than one back to the level it should be, though - as you've suggested - it may not be worth the cost of repair in your case. My personal experience is that it was a worthwhile investment, but it depends on the individual car and owner.

Re-reading your earlier posts and your car's symptoms, I'd say there's a fair chance that you may get away with just a gearbox flush: mileage seems to be the key however, with these often failing once the box gets not far beyond 100k of so.

[sarg]

Richard to reconditioned both transmission and torque converter is approx £1695.00+vat, then the costs to remove / refit the transmission + oils, it all adds up then you need to decide if the car merits the repair,

It's a lot, but it's a lot less than a whole new car.

Wish I'd paid to have mine fixed, instead I scrapped it and paid £8.5k for its replacement which I then sold for £5.5k 18 months later (having spent about £2k 'fettling' it), I may as well have just paid out for the gearbox and kept the rest of the lovely D2 that went with it.

[moltuae]

It's a lot, but it's a lot less than a whole new car.

Agreed. And, as they say, 'better the devil you know' ... even if you replace the car, you could have similar, unforeseen repair costs with your next vehicle.

While I dread these kind of failures, and spend a lot of money on preventative maintenance, I view them as an inevitable part of owning these cars. In fact, I have a savings account that I use just for car maintenance that I try to keep topped up at a level that is just above the cost of a transmission rebuild.

As I see it, when I bought my S8 at 8 years old (when the car was 8 that is, not me), I saved over 60 grand on buying new. It would take a hell of a lot of repairs, maintenance, tyres and petrol to even come close to spending what I've saved there alone. The depreciation of these vehicles at this age is so little from year to year that you should consider that as the money you've saved to offset against repairs.


It's getting very difficult to find good D2 S8s. I spent 3 years trying to find a good one in the right colour combinations, and that was 4 years ago. I suspect it would take much longer now. The price of these cars doesn't yet reflect their rarity, so they're still being scrapped when the cost of repairs exceeds their worth. I think we're reaching an interesting tipping point though where there are fewer cars remaining than potential buyers.

[Sir WIll]

One of the main reasons I bought my S8 recently was the gearbox was completely reconditioned by Mackie's and came with the £3k bill to prove it.

Even though the previous owner serviced the gearbox and looked after it, the auto still failed at 160k.

All I can say now its a comfort to have it done and the gearbox is stunning. very smooth and better than my D3 ever was.

If you have a good D2 its worth spending the money on it. These cars are made better than the ones that came after, were a high point for Audi and are pretty damn rare these days.

[tintin]

Agreed. And, as they say, 'better the devil you know' ... even if you replace the car, you could have similar, unforeseen repair costs with your next vehicle.

While I dread these kind of failures, and spend a lot of money on preventative maintenance, I view them as an inevitable part of owning these cars. In fact, I have a savings account that I use just for car maintenance that I try to keep topped up at a level that is just above the cost of a transmission rebuild.

As I see it, when I bought my S8 at 8 years old (when the car was 8 that is, not me), I saved over 60 grand on buying new. It would take a hell of a lot of repairs, maintenance, tyres and petrol to even come close to spending what I've saved there alone. The depreciation of these vehicles at this age is so little from year to year that you should consider that as the money you've saved to offset against repairs.


It's getting very difficult to find good D2 S8s. I spent 3 years trying to find a good one in the right colour combinations, and that was 4 years ago. I suspect it would take much longer now. The price of these cars doesn't yet reflect their rarity, so they're still being scrapped when the cost of repairs exceeds their worth. I think we're reaching an interesting tipping point though where there are fewer cars remaining than potential buyers.

Agree with every word here - couldn't have put it better myself +++

[David's8]

Agree as well. If you work out the cost of ownership (including depreciation) of your D2 over a fixed period (say 3 years) compared to a newer (but mediocre) car, you may find that the running costs over that period EVEN IF YOU HAVE A GEARBOX failure are not too different. A second hand £20k car can drop in value by the cost of a geabox failure every year.

I managed to persuade SWMBO using this argument that, including the additional fuel costs, it was going to be cheaper to run than a new Nissan Note! :eek2: +++
It did help, of course, that I knew the history of the car I bought from The Laird.

[tintin]

It did help, of course, that I knew the history of the car I bought from The Laird.…"which made a positive difference" (implied but not stated…) ;)

[Ricky22buk]

I'm considering trying something first before jumping into removing the box. My gearbox is perfect when cold but slips when warm and I think it might just be down to the oil level. There has been an oil leak from the drivers side of the gearbox where the drive shaft attaches, and I see from browsing online that you can relatively easily change the oil seal on that side, so I think for the value of an oil seal, some oil and a filter I will try that first.

Don't suppose anyone knows if thats a normal oil seal which would be readily available from a motor factor or bearing / seal specialist, or would it be a specialised seal only available from Audi ?

[HPsauce]

Hmmm. Leaks through those joints/seals, in my 14-year experience of D2 S8's, are a "feature". The wonderful aroma of the fluid dripping onto the hot catalyst lives with me even now. :ROFL:

But I've never lost enough to make a difference to the gearbox itself. And I've had a fair few seals replaced over the years. :cool:
Checking the level is a precise process that has to be done at the correct temperature.

[The_Laird]

I'm still at a loss as to why you don't get the gearbox flush and oil & filter change at Mackies - as more than one of us has advised. And ask them to inspect the rear output seal at the same time and advise on cost to replace if leaking.

It's much cheaper than a rebuilt gearbox and might solve the problems at a stroke.

[ainarssems]

I'm considering trying something first before jumping into removing the box. My gearbox is perfect when cold but slips when warm and I think it might just be down to the oil level. There has been an oil leak from the drivers side of the gearbox where the drive shaft attaches, and I see from browsing online that you can relatively easily change the oil seal on that side, so I think for the value of an oil seal, some oil and a filter I will try that first.

Don't suppose anyone knows if thats a normal oil seal which would be readily available from a motor factor or bearing / seal specialist, or would it be a specialised seal only available from Audi ?

Oil expands when it gets warmer so it's more common to get poor performance while cold and oil level below normal, then it heats up, oil expands, level raises and problem goes away. The problem you describe does not sound that oil level is low. It sounds more like that you are loosing oil pressure when oil gets warmer and thinner.

There are 3 sealed compartments in gearbox, 1-gearbox itself, 2-centre diff and final drive and 3- front diff. Gearbox has ZF Lifeguard fluid in it, both diffs have gear oil in them. The leak you describe where driveshaft connects is from front diff and does not have anything to do with gearbox slipping.

As far as the seal goes you can probably get generic seal that will fit if you have measurements of old seal.

It really needs looking at/diagnostics by ZF specialist. If you keep driving with slipping clutches you will burn them out and then it will definitely need full refurb.

[IT]

^^^^ everything he said.

The final drive seal warps under the heat of the cats and lets out some final drive fluid. Only final drive fluid. This falls onto the cats and burns. Smells, but is harmless enough in terms of gearbox functionality.

The gearboxes don't / shouldn't leak.

For it to slip when warm (as apposed to cold) is odd - It sounds like a professional opinion on it before it gets much worse may save you an expensive fix later down the line.

[MikkiJayne]

The output shaft seals are custom sizes so you can't buy them off the shelf. The driver's side is only £15-20 from Audi though IIRC. Part number 01V409399.

That's not the cause of the slipping though. Barring low oil level, its likely the bearing between the first and second clutch packs has failed (a £6 part which can kill a whole gearbox!), then the o-ring which provides pressure to the clutch hydraulics also fails and you lose clamping force on the friction material which starts to slip. If you catch it soon enough you can replace the bearing and o-ring for about £100 diy, but if you've been driving with it slipping (and the oil smells burnt as per the Mackies response) then it's pretty much toast and will need a full rebuild. Flushing won't help at that stage.

Check the fluid level in the gearbox sump according to the proper procedure, and get a sample of the fluid. If it is clear and doesn't smell then you still have a relatively cheap option. If its a dark colour and smells burnt then its time for a rebuild.

Non-FE S8s have been going for for ~£1000 on ebay so if the car is in good condition apart from the gearbox it is still worth spending the money on a rebuild.

[Ricky22buk]

I would just like to say how I appreciate the very detailed and informative replies guys.

I thought that it would be worth topping up the gearbox to ensure the oil level is where it should be, and before I did that I assumed the right thing to do would be replace that seal I noticed leaking. It certainly sounds from the replies that the box is manufactured in such a way that the leak is nothing to do with my particular problem, and it seems more likely that I'm losing oil pressure rather than just being low in oil from the hot and cold oil description.

I simply thought it would be a good idea to try the oil and seal as a cheap effort to see if it helped before fitting the gearbox I already have, and as I live in northern Ireland, the cost of travelling to Mackies to get a filter and gearbox flush wouldn't be viable as I know in my own heart of hearts that there is a high percentage chance I'm going to have to fit the new gearbox anyway, so the costs all add up.

I have a reconditioned box here for the car, which was supplied by the forums sponsers, along with a new torque convertor reconditioned by Mackies, new filter and oil. So basically everything to do the job, but just thought it might have be worth the effort to try this first. Seems like the general consensus is that I should just fit my new gearbox as the perception is an internal problem rather than an oil level. I do understand there is a procedure for filling and running the gearbox to fill it properly at a specific temp.

The last few replies have convinced me that I shouldn't waste my time on my so called cheap fix !!!!!

Thank you one all all !!!!

[Ricky22buk]

Right bit the bullet...... old box out and replacement now fitted. I have a few odds and ends to clear up before I look into these next two steps.



1. When I removed the engine cover below, I realized I have a very bad oil leak on the left hand side of the engine, and although its hard to tell its origin without washing and driving again, online reading seems to suggest the transmission fluid is pumped through the radiator as a means of cooling it and that seems to be a problem area for leakage.

If it is in my case can I ask where would be the best place to buy a new radiator, basically somewhere that would have it sitting on the shelf so I could get one dispatched asap ? I'm assuming this could well have been my problem all along with the leakage of transmission fluid.

If this isn't where my leak is coming from, should I even attempt to remove the old oil from that pipework and cooler loop considering I don't have access to the specialist machine you guys keep taking about ? I hate the though of mixing it with the new oil I'm putting in the box !



2. Also, I'm a little confused with the oil filling procedure. When your car is on the ground and via the gear lever you select first, you cannot select second until you are doing above a certain speed, which I assume comes from a wheel speed sensor.

So if the car is on a lift and the procedure tells you to go through selected gears for 30 seconds each with your foot on the brake, I'm assuming you shouldn't be able to select all the gears without the wheels turning ?

If this is a stupid question please tell me and I will apologize !

Thanks in advance guys !

[MikkiJayne]

I use Exeter Radiators since they're near me. They have a bunch of different suppliers and usually can ship direct from source so quite quick. Worth a call http://www.carradiator.co.uk/

Not sure how much one is for an S8 yet as I haven't asked them. Euro Car Parts are £500+ and not in stock. My copy of Etka says £430 for a genuine one, which may be a bit out of date.

You'll not get all the old oil out of the box unless you strip it down. The TC will still be full too. Best you can do with a drain and re-fill is about half of it I think, without the special machine. Its easy enough to drain the lines to the rad, but not really worth it unless you're swapping the radiator anyway.

Not sure about the gear procedure - I always assumed the wheels were spinning to do it.

[Adrian E]

Current price for a rad (OEM) is about £500 before discount

With gear selector, you do not need the wheels to rotate. By moving the selector through the available modes (which if your car pre-dates S mode includes 2-3-4) you're allowing oil to flow through parts of the box statically before it's driven.

It would be crazy to attempt to have the wheels driven at road speed on a lift

The main challenge when filling the box is keeping the oil temperature low enough - main thing is to get as much in there as possible before starting and have an assistant to monitor oil temp with VCDS and move the gear selector as required while you're under the car pumping more fluid in there.

Worth making sure you can actually get the oil in without just spilling it over yourself!

[Cornershop]

Genuine rad a bit cheaper here:

http://www.genuineautoparts.com/uk/auto-parts/2001/audi/s8/base-trim/4-2l-v8-gas-engine/cooling-system-cat/radiator-and-components-scat


Not used this company myself but others have, appears legit.

[briang9]

I am no mechanic, and the work you have done already way surpasses my knowledge and skill... but I always thought the ATF cooler was a separate unit from the "main" radiator?

[MikkiJayne]

Its built in to the end tank of the radiator :) Its more of a heat exchanger than a cooler really, the same as the engine oil 'cooler'. It keeps everything at coolant temperature, and dissipates excess heat into the coolant and out via the radiator.