Fails to start.
 

The car has been standing around for a while and yesterday i put a new air filter in prior to doing the oil and filter today. I didnt start or move the car before or after doing the air filter. Came to start the car today to get it on ramps for the oil change and it fires up and then cuts out. BrianG suggested the immobiliser problem but I am not getting the immobiliser light. I noticed the fuel guage was showing empty (I cannot remember parking it up with so little fuel :Confused:) so went and got 5 ltrs. Still wont run. I think I can hear the fuel pump when switching on and it will fire first time, every time. But the empty gauge is intriguing me.
Any ideas? Its a fine evening and I would like to get it sorted out.

For the brief time it runs, does it run fairly smoothly before it suddenly cuts or is it more of a cough and splutter before dying (especially if you use the throttle to try to keep it running)? If it's the former, I'd suspect immobiliser, otherwise I'd suspect fuel.

Also, if the fuel level was very low, because of the unusual way the tank works, I suppose it's possible you may need to put a lot more fuel in to get the air out of the pipes.

Hi Mark,
It starts up with the usual roar and then, instead of settling back to idle, just dies. Using the throttle just increases the initial revs (as you might expect) before dying away. I would have thought the immobiliser issue was to blame ...but i cant figure this fuel gauge issue.

I am certainly aware of the complexities of the tank and the pump/venturi system - when i came back from a few weeks away the year before last i had a similar issue. got the local indy to take the car away, pull the pump out and give it a good eyeballing but they never found a fault. it worked perfectly thereafter --- until now.

These cars need a damn good thrashing every now and again... and I dont mean Basil Fawlty style - they just NEED to be driven!

That definitely sounds like immobiliser behaviour. Do you have VCDS to scan it with?

You could try cracking off the fuel feed union on the fuel rail to see if anything comes out - just loosen it a little with plenty of cloths to absorb the spillage. I wouldn't have thought it would start well if that was the issue though.

:lol: They do.

Gotta give 'em some stick (not the entire branch).

They sulk if you don't drive them often enough.




That does sound like an immobiliser or electrical issue to me too. When I've had fuel tank/pump issues in the past, the brief starts were (as you'd expect) more coughy/spluttery and sometimes extendible with a bit of throttle.

I need to get the (shared) VCDS off The Laird tomorrow and will give it a scan then. +++

Thanks Mikki, I was going to check fuel flow too. I have a new fuel filter to fit as part of the service routine (even the old one is less than 10-k miles old) so will do that asap.

You should get immobiliser warning light if it is immobiliser issue if the light is working. Another way to confirm/eliminate immobiliser is - turn on ignition and start engine immediately, so the engine starts and dies within second or 2 because it had couple of seconds of runtime before immo blocked it. Second time turn on ignition, wait 5 seconds to give time for immo to block engine running and try to start, if it still starts it's not immobiliser problem.

Considering that you changed air filter before issue started I would be looking at MAF, it's wiring and unmetered air leaks, but than again it should still run at high rpm if you applied throttle, at least for cable throttle cars but as yours is drive by wire it could still be the problem.

If the tank is empty and you put in some petrol it will drain straight into fuel delivery unit so even if suction jet pumps are not working you would get more than couple of seconds running time, at least couple of miles of driving.

It could be fuel pump or relay issue as well, my friend had a very similar issue on Ford Focus, turn on ignition, fuel pump and engine runs for couple of seconds, failing pump draws too much current and relay cuts out, engine dies. At the time at Tesco car park I swapped full beam light and fuel pump relays for him as they are the same, well actually most of them are the same on Focus but I thought full beam was the kind of thing he could get by without if it was relays fault. Both full beam and fuel pump was working then and he was driving it without an issue for several month since but had to change fuel pump eventually.

If the fuel was low it could be air in fuel lines, just try turning ignition on and off for couple of seconds at the time for 10+ times for fuel pump to prime and flush out any bubbles.



Edit

Is the car on incline? That could explain weird fuel gauge readings, still should run OK if you put 5l of petrol in it. Now that i come to think about it, if somebody messed about in the fuel tank before they might have dislodged fill tube so that it drains any entering fuel in the main tank instead of fuel delivery unit in which case you will need like half a tank before it runs properly.

Thanks Ainars,
The car IS on a slight incline with the front end up the hill. The MAF was my first concern having given the airbox a good clean with the vacuum cleaner and a soft bush before fiiting the new filter.
However, I will read all that carefully and then check out all the issues you raise.

If it were the MAF it would still run, but would faulter under load and possibly throw a fault, so I don't think the MAF is your problem. (I could be wrong) Sounds like a petrol problem, either not enough in the tank or a faulty pump. I would stick another 5 litres in and see if there's any difference

Will try that too John. I guess it's a matter of trying out each potential cause.

OK, got a VCDS scan.

In 01 Engine address it states:

17978 Engine start blocked by immobiliser P1570-35-00
18058 Powertrain data bus P1650-35-00 Missing message from instrument cluster

also 03 ABS:

01203 Electrical connection between ABS and Instrument cluster 31-00 open or short to ground.

I noticed that the VCDS didnt pick up the VIN code. I have also realised that the odometer isnt showing when the ignition is on and this along with the fact that fuel gauge (as mentioned before) is on the stops and not registering anything suggests that there is an issue with the instrument cluster . Or is the above a result of a the immobiliser doing its thing? I notice that someone else on here posted about the immobiliser wire this morning - is this the season for it? Any further help/suggestions on way ahead much appreciated.

Hmmm. Sounds like it could be a missing instrument cluster power feed.

After a quick look here (page 8) ...
http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...8&d=1420349196
... I'd probably be checking S1 (ST4) first.

Thanks Mark. will check that out. +++

first question is where is the S1/ST4 fuse carrier ?

OK think i have it (RTFM!!) page 1 shows that! :o

Page 1 shows the carrier.

Not 100% sure without checking but I would guess driver's footwell. Looks like row 4 (ST4) fuse 1(S1).

Failing that, I'd just check them all! :D


EDIT: haha, replied at the same time!

Well its not Fuse S1/ST4.

Now starting to grasp at straws..... the Starter Inhibitor Relay (J207 - in the passenger footwell) is controlled by F125 switch so would a fault there give the symptoms I have or would it not allow the engine to turnover/fire at all? But there again I seem to have lost power to some elements of the instrument cluster as I stated earlier which points towards a power supply issue to the cluster..... :Confused:

I would say the lack of power and communications to the instrument cluster has to be the clue. There may be another fuse involved. Might be easiest to just visually check them all.

The other issues from the scan would point to that.

"18058 Powertrain data bus P1650-35-00 Missing message from instrument cluster

also Address 03 ABS:

01203 Electrical connection between ABS and Instrument cluster 31-00 open or short to ground."

There must be a loose / damaged connector between the cluster and the loom but does that "connect" with the immobiliser activation?

Just had a look at Rosstech wiki. it states that for immobiliser DTC P1570 (wot i got):

"Possible Causes

Key(s) not matched
Instrument Cluster not matched
Engine Control Unit (ECU) not matched
Engine Control Unit (ECU) Power Supply faulty

which accounts for the question i raised above above how cluster faults cause immobiliser to cut in.
It further states under special notes:
"Low battery voltage (including a faulty battery) may cause Immobilizer system malfunctions and testing should be done only with a known good battery installed." Now the car has been standing for a while unused so I will put it on charge. It states that: "on rare occasions it helps to try cold-booting the car. Remove both battery cables from the battery. Short the battery cables together (away from the battery) for about 15 seconds. Reconnect the battery."

So basically, if in doubt, 'try turning it off and on again' :D

Certainly sounds logical though. If the battery voltage has dipped low, without completely dying (a condition we call 'brownout' in electronics), digital circuits can end up in an unknown state due to the fact that some circuits will cease to function while others remain online, effectively causing some parts of the system to crash/hang.

Hopefully those steps will fix it. If not, since it's been stood a while, I'd suspect bad connectivity due to dampness. Has it been out in the rain? How dry is your electronics box?

Got the battery on charge now +++ the has been outside and there has been some heavy rain..... and I have been thinking about the ECU box but just didnt really want to go there!! Its now raining hard and i dont want to open up the box but that may be my next job.

Bingo! Looked at the wiring diagram pdf (not the current flow diagram) and found that the cluster is fed from ST3 Fuse 4 - I missed the fact that it fed the cluster when looking for potential fuses :o. However, when I pulled the fuse it was OK so was disappointed until I replaced it and the display came to life! so i guess it was poor contact/damp.

Now to get myself dried off!

Nice one! +++

I suppose it's also possible that it was making contact but by pulling the fuse you rebooted the cluster computer.

That may indeed have been the case Mark. Thanks for your support +++. Its always good to get some good leads from others and be able to bounce ideas off someone else.

Good to hear David, pity about the rain, 30 in the shade here, just ordered my second beer+++

:cheers:

Well, managed to complete the oil and filter change today up on ramps. Afterwards took it out for good "spirited" drive along the road from the Naval base through Glen Fruin. Its become a favourite with bikers and its a good blast. That took the rust off the brake discs!
I shall try to get out in it more.......