Depressed A8 owner - Warwickshire
 

Hello all, registered here a while back, but never got round to posting before, but have had disaster and need some assistance.

My car is W885HFC, a facelift 4.2 quattro Sport, owned since October 2006 and now on 121,000 miles.

For a while I've felt that the gearbox was not as smooth as it once was, change from 2nd down to 1st when pulling up particularly noticeable.

So, last week I got round to having a transmission oil change at Vasstech in Rugby, and had the engine oil replaced and the wheels re-balanced at the same time. They assured me they only use OEM parts by the way.

I didn't really notice any improvement in the change unfortunately, and today the worst has happened, the gearbox seemed to have given up the ghost.

On the way to work this morning, some of the changes were really clonking, complete with the noise, but on the way home it felt like the clutches were slipping, then it went into 'failsafe' mode.

I drove straight back to Vasstech - the guy there came out for a quick drive and basically told me it's terminal, but not a job they would take on due to lack of expertise.

So, what I need to know is:

1. Has the dealer used the wrong ATF and done me, or;
2. Was it coming anyway, and this is just coincedence?

If the latter, can anyone point me in the direction of somebody that can repair/replace at reasonable cost, otherwise I have no choice but to scrap her, which would be a total shame as she is pretty good order otherwise, if not perfect.

Thanks for any help or advice you guys can give me.

Steve - 07973 335168

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63142815@N08/5737765860/

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http://www.flickr.com/photos/63142815@N08/5737746926/

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All the pics are on this site, but please ignore the rusty brake discs, she'd just been washed :)

Steve, I was going to call you but got my baby nephew here and he won't let me do anything. I'll come back to this thread soon. I'm only in Leamington. +++

No worries and thanks

The worse thing is I'm booked on a ferry in 36 hours time to travel to S.France for a fortnight, luckily made arrangements to borrow father's car.

Guess it's better to have happened here than there!

Could be terminal... Sometimes disturbing the box can cause it.. But I'd have it checked independently to check the oil quantity as it's easy to screw up.

Thats a lovely example, would be a real shame if you had to scrap it, but guess sometimes the economics dont make sense, do you know how much a new box would cost against what the cars worth?

Sorry to hear about this Sarge. I had my gearbox rebuilt on my S8 last year for the below cost

Labour to Ben at Revo/AVP £250 to remove and refit but I asked him for another quote a few weeks back and he said it was £450 now. This might be Revo rates rather then AVP ones.
Rebuild cost with vat is going to be a minuim of £1300 now I reckon with the VAT rise. Also my gearbox problem seemed more simple then yours does.

Don't scrap the car, get a price on what A8 Parts will offer you and I will try and match it and keep it in one piece.

By the way. It was VMTP transmissions that did mine so you may want to have a chat with them. Let me know if I can help in any way +++

general wisdom around these parts is to do as you've done on a car with high-ish miles if it's showing signs of box problems - to leave well alone given the mileage until something plays up, try an oil change as it's cheaper than a new box, but if all else fails recognise that fresh oil could cause an earlier failure than leaving it alone with a minor fault.

If the bill for oil was anywhere from £75 upwards then probably the right stuff - from memory it's in the £10-20 bracket per litre!

Get the oil level checked properly, as suggested, but it'll need to be done more or less cold/level/in the air.

If it does end up terminal/uneconomic then speak to A8 parts and I'm sure they'll make you an offer for the car. Drop me a line as there's a couple of bits in the pics I wouldn't mind :D - I do hope you get it sorted but the bill will probably run to £2-2500 for a refurbished box from Audi, plus fitting if it's a worst case scenario.....

edit - d'oh! Amar got there first lol

I've just worked out a new business for Conan now that he's a man of leisure....

A8 gearbox rebuilds! He'd make at least a tenner a year :)

And if he does write ups for each, we could sell them for comedy value and make some money.

Bill details ATF part number G 052 162 A2, 9 litres, total £87.39 plus VAT, but no filters or gaskets - reading the transmission pages, seems I should have a 'fuller' gearbox service with a ZF specialist/dealer

So, anyone selling a nice but cheap D3? :)

Ah.. no filters or gaskets? filter should be done, and if you take a pan off, you should replace the gasket.

Certainly sounds like they didn't do it properly at this point.

Lots of decent D3s out there...

It's on my list of things to learn! :p

I still wince when anyone mentions the "G" word lol
I guess I feel happier about the outlay now with an unlimited mileage warranty for the first 2 years, its just a shame i'm not doing a few more miles!

filter would defo have helped, if only to remove any potential blockage in the filter as a cause of a fault. To be honest it's a bit of a job if the garage isn't used to doing it - the parts aren't particularly expensive but it's a couple of hours work with a decent wheels-free lift and vag-com to monitor the box temps.

9 litres is the capacity - mine had a filter change as well, detailed in the transmission section, and my mate only got 7 litres back in of which about a litre came out with the filter - the torque converter can't be emptied of fluid without removing it. Would expect no more than 6 litres to have been pushed in if all they did was drain and refill.....

To be honest with a definite fault going on, it probably would've happened whatever the garage did.

Is this VMTP in Norton Canes, Staffs?

They fitted a replacement box to this vehicle in August 2004 at 55k, the cost then was £2005

That's the one Sarge. Someone on TSN managed to take Audi to court and make them pay for a new gearbox on his S8 after Audi did the gearbox oil change and didn't replace the filter as he proved it was what caused the failure.

Tsn?

I tend to agree with whats been said, think if the box is developing faults then no matter what happens in terms of servicing it the damage is probably done, and at best you will only prolong the inevitable for a short time, thats no consolation I know but I dont think trying to pursue a claim now if there were pre-existing faults is going to get anywhere, its a bu**er I know but the car does look nice and if it were mine I would try everything I could afford (not much at the moment!!) to try and preserve it, whatever happens good luck

cheers

Guys, you are all diamonds, thanks for all the help - I have no reason to dis-trust the garage, and was not expecting them to have caused the problem, just wanted to be sure, but will still get a 2nd opinion, probably from RSD in Daventry (http://www.rsdcars-uk.co.uk/) when I get back from my trip to the Monaco GP :)

Will have a think about what I am going to replace it with, considering a D3, but might move to an X5/Q7 instead, or might just buy a crappy old banger off ebay while I think about it.

Pls do nudge me though if anyone knows of a well-specced older D3 coming up for sale. (No cream or silver/grey leather though thanks, black or brown only)

Hi all, I'm sarg's brother and his personal mechanic ;-). I'm travelling up with him when we come back from the South of France and will get the car on the ramps to check the fluid and also plug in to see if any fault codes have come up. I will also check the colour of the fluid - I understand the proper Audi fluid is greenish-yellow rather than the more usual red for ATF. Is this still the case?

Probably, I'll change the oil and filters and do it all again to see if it helps. Seems, to be worth it given the cost vs scrapping or putting in a new box.

In my experience, when something goes wrong shortly after you change something, it's normally something to do with whatever you did and best to start there first with fault finding!

I also find it no coincidence that the box should fail shortly after the service and please do remember this box has only done about 60k miles. The problems he was having before are all symptoms that would often be cured by a fluid change and service and I really don't subscribe to the 'new oil will kill it' theories that seem to come up with auto 'boxes. I really just don't understand the thinking behind it - it you had an engine that hadn't had it's oil changed for a while, I don't think anyone would leave it in!

Still, we'll find out more in a few weeks and I'm sure I'll be back on here to ask for help!

Welcome to the forum Chris. Here is the proper guide for changing the gearbox oil.

http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articl...servicing.html

OK, so Chris has had the A8 up on the ramps and stands this evening. The oil level is good, it is full, but the colour of the oil was not the yellowish-green colour we were expecting.

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Gearbox oil level & type check 011 by SnrSarg, on Flickr

As per the invoice, there is no evidence of new filter, so they have only changed the oil, nothing else.

The car has only done 150 miles maximum since the oil change, but definitely does not look like oil that new as there seems to be too much debris/sediment in the oil, although that could have come from the filler plug.

Any suggestions for the next step?

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Gearbox oil level & type check 010 by SnrSarg, on Flickr

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Gearbox oil level & type check 009 by SnrSarg, on Flickr

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Gearbox oil level & type check 005 by SnrSarg, on Flickr

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Gearbox oil level & type check 001 by SnrSarg, on Flickr

Chris plugged in the VAG-com thingy, fault codes found were:

P0733 - gear 3; incorrect ratio
P0732 - similar to above, but for gear 2

Remember that unless they have one of the special machines that cycles the new ATF into the box as it drains the old ATF there is quite a bit left in. Draining only leaves 2 to 3 liters in the TC and valve bodies. Not changing the filters is a false economy as the filters filter! Therefore it will slowly clog up. Did you ask for an ATF and filter change? If so then back to the garage I would say. If only a fluid change was requested then you have probably got what you asked for.

Given the colour of the ATF now only analysis of it would detect if it was the wrong fluid.

ouch, personally I'd just wait for a box from A8 parts. the swap isn't that expensive if some knows what they're doing (all hail Ben :) ) Cost you about the same as a (bearable) banger off ebay and would give you time to consider options.

Bill

I think that's a bit unfair Conan.

I asked for a gearbox oil service, I also visited the garage prior to booking in for reassurance that they knew what they were doing as I knew rnough to know it was critical to be done correctly.

However, I am not a mechanic, far from it, and do not have the knowledge to say to them, you know what, best make sure you change the filter and this and that and everything else too, that's why I employ a garage!

Bill, A8 parts reckon about £700 for a 2nd hand box, plus best part of £1,000 for somebody to fit it - I can get a warranted recon box fitted for £1860 plus VAT (Automatic Transmissions, Huddersfield), so I think the recon box would be the best option if I decide not to scrap.

However, I also saw A8s on Ebay for spares or repair for about £1,200, so it might be better just to cut loose, I haven't decided, but I know what you mean - spend 2k ish, get my favourite ever car back, but what is next? 120k miles, how long before the engine lands me a big bill, or an exhaust, or some more suspension bits, all getting a bit expensive now, though the attraction is still there for me, it is a great car with a nice spec.

Wouldn't bother with a second hand box myself unless it had a recent rebuild these are prone for failing so save yourself twice the labour costs.

So I've had the chance to give the car a quick drive now... basically as soon as you put your foot down the car revs with little drive, then changes up a gear at a time until finally hitting about 3rd gear... do it a few more times and it goes in to limp home mode - i.e. stuck in 4th. Driving it again in manual mode showed this slipping, accompanied by a fair bit of judder actually, in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear but not at all in 4th or 5th gear.

Also, as soon as you reset the errors the gearbox starts working in all gears again immediately but with the slipping in the first three as before. Hence, it's not because of the 'oil overheating' that's causing the limp home. The limp home is being caused by the fact that the system is sensing there's far too much speed difference between input and output shafts and therefore there must be something wrong - the diagnostics don't seem to be able to tell anymore than that. I think at one point I read the fluid as being at 8 degrees fahranheit.

Fluid that came out still smelt sweet with no burnt smell and I'm led to believe that a slipping wet clutch will burn itself off and the oil will smell burnt. I can also understand that with a wet clutch, the viscosity of the oil must be absolutely critical for them to work as they should.

Also, I can't see how this could affect it but I'd mention it anyway, there is a (quite a bad) leak from the final drive, drive shaft oil seal. Just wondering if this was so failed that the one wheel was slipping loads and just confusing the hell out of the electronics... clutching at straws I think but you never know!

Any further advice would be greatly appreciated. My thoughts at the moment would be to do a proper service on the gearbox, drop the sump pan, change the filter and fill it with proper genuine Audi oil. If that doesn't cure it then we 'scrap' it or fit a recon box. Alternatively, has anyone ever been able to rebuild one of these things themselves or are there lots of special presses etc needed to tear it down?

Hey Conan, I know what you're getting at - the ATF would come out a bit dirtier if they didn't either use one of those machines or drop the pan and completely empty the box. Hence the 'new oil' might come out looking a bit dirty as we found.

Anyone know if the genuine oil is still the yellowish green colour?

Whoever quoted you £1,000 labour to change the gearbox probably doesn't have a clue. I paid £250 and it was in and out in four hours. That was with Ben who can do it quickly being familiar with these cars. The most you should pay is £600, I wouldn't pay more then £350 for a reconditioned gearbox either unless it was freshley rebuilt. No one here has rebuilt one but Tozo on quattroworld is a ZF gearbox god, he has refurbished loads and even converted 2 D2 S8 models into 6 speed twin turbo manuals, we need him in the UK!
If your seriously considering getting rid, I could be interested as a project car. Also, I have heard very good things by friends about OSC Motorsport in Rugby, may want to speak to them.

Just playing devils advocate - Sorry. :o

Final drive first. There are 2 on the box. Rear output, which is indicated by the smell of burning oil as it drips onto the passenger side cat. and front outputs. Neither are lubricated by the ATF as they are separate from the transmission and each other. They use final drive oil and the output seals are easy, if time-consuming, to change.

Transmission. Do you get any noise when the car starts, this could be cavitation, where the filter is blocked and the ATF can not be sucked up quick enough by the pump which is running at engine speed. I cured this with a filter and ATF change. 8 deg F is way wrong. it needs to be at 30 deg C for level setting during the fill, and will climb from there.

Next possibility is that the valve bodies are malfunctioning. Have a read of this post for more information. The transmission sticky also has loads of information. There was also a post on Tyresmoke in the A/S8 section by someone who did a valve body service, but I can't find it at the moment. He found that several of the solenoids had mesh filter screens and they quite fouled up with gunge.

Slipping clutches are the most common failure. Rebuilding is more fiddley than difficult. All the parts are available from ZF and I for one would like to have a go when I have time. There is a guy in North Yorks that service the HP25 for free!!!! But he does Land and Rangerover versions. There are however a couple of special tools needed.

Yep. Part number G052162A2. Don't pay more than £8 a litre. You can get it here at £7.27 + delivery.

A full ATF and filter change (don't forget the 'O' seal) will cost about £120 tops in parts alone. The ATF is available in bulk of 20Ltrs to save money. Sell the left over on to someone on here.

Should have said 84 degrees, not 8, sorry!

Hey Conan, I mean the rear final drive on the rear axle, not the one from the autobox. The autobox one had it's output shaft seal changed recently as yes, it was dripping on to the left cat. The rear final drive is leaking from the n/s driveshaft seal.

Yeah, sorry - typo from me! Was 84 degrees I think. No strange noises at all - even under the car with my head just a few inches from the transmission with the engine running!

I will have a read and look in to it. Anyway of checking the valve body operation without stripping it down? Will they throw fault codes? Will the valve body failure or blocked mesh filters cause these sorts of faults?

I'm pretty sure the clutches are slipping - the question is why? Is it because they're just totally worn out or is it because they've got the wrong fluid in? Also, does anyone know if there's any form of friction modifier that could be added to help stop the clutches slipping? Also, it still seems strange to me that they would 'fail' almost immediately after the fluid was changed and that seemingly all of them failing on 1, 2 and 3rd gears at the same time?!

Is it worth changing the fluids and filters at this point?

Rear final drive won't affect the tranny. Process is similar to front.

84 deg, Phew! :D

No way to test valve body in the car apart from the output tests on VCDS. You may need a genuine lead to do this though. It activates the shift solenoids etc and if they throw a fault records it in the fault table I think.

If I were in doubt about the fluid, and you know the filter wasn't changed then I would change both as a DIY option before commiting to more expensive lines of action.

when my transmission oil was changed, with filter, 7 litres of fluid went back in which given the capacity is about 9 litres is pretty much all you can expect to get out without draining the torque converter.

If the fluid appears wrong type you might want to flush with fresh fluid and change again - but that's not a cheap option! I'm aiming to have my fluid changed again in 2 years (will be about 10k miles) which should get some more of the old stuff out.

Clutches would be slipping because they are worn out or if there is not sufficient oil pressure to press them together. Fresh oil could have lifted old dirt up and blocked filters or caused sticking solenoids not closing or opening properly.

Just taking sump off will get You around 5l out.

Proper oil change takes 11-12l. After initial fill-up before starting car they connect pump/meter between oil radiator and gearbox in return pipe and this device collects dirty oil running from gearbox through the radiator and then pumps the same quantity of fresh oil until returning oil is seen clear either in clear hose or window. After that they reconnect the pipes , warm up gearbox and check final fluid level.

Popped in to Revo Technik yesterday and told them what happened. They immediately asked 'what type of oil did they put in and is it full?' We showed them a sample of the oil we'd taken out, which is red and quite thin and again they immediately said it was totally the wrong oil, wrong colour and far too thin and watery. Explained that we might be able to save the box my doing a couple of full flushes and filter changes.

So next step is to contact the original garage who assured us they did it all properly and 'absolutely' used genuine Audi 'box oil - even listed the Audi part number on the invoice. Clearly they haven't so we will be asking for a refund, inconvenience compensation and that we will send a bill to them for a rebuilt box if we can't get this one going. Very frustrating when the guy supposedly worked for Audi for 20 years before setting up on his own (and this is the not the best sorts of things to be doing for your reputation when you're just starting out!) and assuring us he would do it right - we knew how sensitive these boxes were before doing it!

Depending on what they say and how they react, we may ask them to put it right or we just do it ourselves properly so we know it's been done to our standards!

Will update in a few days hopefully....