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-   -   Transmission questions (https://forum.a8parts.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7033)

Mugzee 12th October 2013 08:23 AM

Transmission questions
 
As I'll be changing the transmission fluid on my FL D2 4.2 very soon, I had a couple of questions that can hopefully be answered. . . .

Is the fluid change procedure on Audi pages the one I should follow or are there any others? The reason I ask is because there is what seems to be an official ZF video on YouTube which details the procedure slightly differently. I just wondered if anyone had had experience of this?

Secondly, I can buy genuine fluid and parts from the parts store and was wondering if they are the same as Audi (I assume they are so should be fine)?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

The_Laird 13th October 2013 06:31 AM

I think you need special equipment for this on a D2 and so it's a professional job. You need the machine that effectively flushes the box (referred to on here as a 'squirty, pumpy, sucky thing' or words to that effect) that a good ZF specialist would own.

There are tales of the oil simply being changed and boxes failing shortly afterwards because of 'muck' being disturbed and not flushed out.

The 'Glasgow mafia' uses a company called Mackies and the cost is around £150. They recommend that this is done annually!

Depending on your location (good idea to include that in your profile) someone on here will be able to recommend a suitable company I'm sure.

Mugzee 13th October 2013 08:31 AM

Ahh yes, that info would be useful on my profile.

I understand that a full flush would be beneficial as it would replace all the fluid in the transmission, and when doing a drain and fill whilst changing the filter and seal, only around half of the fluid gets changed as the rest of the fluid stays in the torque converter.

Reading the info on Audi pages (and from other sources), the drain and fill procedure seems very beneficial. As long as it is carried out in the correct way and at the correct temperature.

I would be interested to know (if someone could tell me that would be brilliant) if anyone local to me would have the facilities to be able to carry out a full transmission flush. . . . . . .

David's8 14th October 2013 08:07 AM

You may have already seen the info in the sticky at the head of this section but there is a lot of info there including ZF specialist locations. +++

Mugzee 14th October 2013 08:35 AM

Thank you. I did have a full read through and called a few of the centres but most of them only supply parts. Chester transmissions seem to have a good reputation (although not on the list), it's just a bit of a drive from me. Not that that's a problem in the 8 though :)

Mugzee 14th October 2013 09:01 AM

One thing I do find frustrating is the amount of conflicting opinions regarding the effectiveness of a service and process in which it's carried out. Some suggest a full flush is the only way while others say it's simply not possible to carry out a full flush due to the design.

Quite difficult to know what route to take. I'll probably compete the job (drain and fill with filter and seals) myself with VCDS monitoring the fluid temp during the process.

notorious 14th October 2013 09:32 AM

Where do they say full flush is not possible?

Again, depends on definition of 'full' flush. Couple of drops will always be left.

If you have choice between normal procedure and the 'plus service' where they do oil change with a machine by connecting it to oil cooler line just go for second option as in this case they will change almost everything in the system.

Tell us what your concerns are.

Mugzee 14th October 2013 10:17 AM

Well I've been contacting local-ish transmission specialists to see if anyone can offer a full flush service rather than a basic drain and fill. The people I've spoken to so far can't do the former. One company (TES transmissions in Wiltshire) said it's not possible to fully flush the system due to the design (solenoids, torque converter etc.) Surely the process of gear selection will ensure full flushing of the transmission?

Then there's the discussion of what fluid to use. . . . Lifeguard 5, esso, mobil, imported fluid from Canada (as used by Chester)? Both esso and Mobil are owned by ExxonMobil so I would guess both products are the same. I'm inclined to use ZF's own product for piece of mind (even though it is almost twice the price) but transmission specialists would be happy to use something else. . . .

It's amazing how much info is on this subject on the net with seemingly no clear answers. Maybe a call to ZF will be able to shed some light on the situation. After all they are the ones who designed the transmission in the first place.

Mugzee 14th October 2013 10:28 AM

Just spoken to ZF uk. Waiting for a call back from the technical department. I'll post my findings asap . . .

notorious 14th October 2013 11:23 AM

When I went to Chester I purchased all parts including fluid myself from Audi. When I talked to them on the phone they asked me (twice) if my fluid is genuine Audi.

Did you talk to them? Are they saying they now import fluid from Canada?

Mugzee 14th October 2013 11:36 AM

I'm going to buy the required parts myself too. I wonder if Audi fluid is just re-bottled lifeguard 5? I'm going to use either of them whatever happens.

When I spoke with Chester transmissions they said they use fluid that's imported from Canada (didn't specify the make). I think that's where they got their flushing pump from too.

notorious 14th October 2013 12:40 PM

Interesting. Let us know if you know exactly what they use.

I went there twice (from Reading!) and they know what they do. Apart from forgetting to tighten security wheel bolt, which I fixed myself later. They are not cheap, but I see value of servicing transmission there.

Mugzee 14th October 2013 07:37 PM

Just found some interesting info about ZF and Audi fluid. Is it frowned upon to post a quote from another forum?

HPsauce 14th October 2013 07:41 PM

Post a link, unless it's not "public".

Mugzee 14th October 2013 07:55 PM

Specifically mustangbuffs post at 8.42 am

http://forums.audiworld.com/archive/...t-2802578.html

Mugzee 14th October 2013 08:12 PM

It seems they are saying that Audi fluid is actually ZF lifeguard 5. They list the same Audi part number.

HPsauce 14th October 2013 08:28 PM

Yes, for the 5HP24. More specifically it very clearly says to use nothing else.

Mugzee 14th October 2013 08:48 PM

Indeed. I had wondered if they were the same fluid. Strangely the Audi fluid is almost half the price of ZF lifeguard 5 fluid.

Mugzee 15th October 2013 07:02 PM

I spoke with a technical guy at ZF today and he confirmed that Audi fluid is indeed ZF fluid. He also said that due to the design, it isn't possible to totally flush a transmission with a machine as there will always be fluid left in the Torque Converter.
He said the way they get as much fluid flushed as possible is by doing a "double flush" which is first carrying out a normal drain and fill with a new filter and associated bits, continue with the engine running for a couple of minutes to circulate the new fluid, then drain and fill again. The temperature should also be continually monitored through the process keeping it at 40.

I'll be servicing mine asap.

Mugzee 15th October 2013 08:46 PM

I forgot to mention that he said the 5HP boxes are generally very reliable. He also said a lot of premature failures are caused by MAF sensors giving readings that are slightly out of tolerance (wouldn't throw a fault code or CEL) and cause the transmission to shift at the wrong times. The only way of testing is by logging data and comparing to correct values.

I have read something about that before and that most people would change the MAF after fitting a new or rebuilt transmission. . . .

Architex_mA8tey 15th October 2013 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugzee (Post 63106)
I forgot to mention that he said the 5HP boxes are generally very reliable. He also said a lot of premature failures are caused by MAF sensors giving readings that are slightly out of tolerance (wouldn't throw a fault code or CEL) and cause the transmission to shift at the wrong times. The only way of testing is by logging data and comparing to correct values.

I have read something about that before and that most people would change the MAF after fitting a new or rebuilt transmission. . . .

Interesting as I've always said that my MAF failing caused my perfectly fine box to fail and I replaced the MAF when I changed the box. My advice is to regularly scan your car for MAF codes etc even if the car is driving fine +++

Delboy 16th October 2013 07:22 AM

Could someone please explain to me how a faulty MAF can destroy a gearbox?

notorious 16th October 2013 07:27 AM

By the way, for ECU it is very difficult to catch MAF not working precisely. Most MAF inaccuracies are not noticed by ECU.

Mugzee 16th October 2013 01:20 PM

He was saying that as the ECU and the TCU both communicate with each other, when there are even slight deviations in MAF signal it can cause the transmission to shift at the wrong times. This in turn can pass too much torque through the box whilst in the wrong gear and cause excessive wear.

I would guess each gear has a designed operating RPM range and if operated outside those tolerances damage can occur.

Delboy 16th October 2013 01:31 PM

I suppose thats possible, but surely the ecu would communicate rpm etc too.

gearboxes are all about rpm and ratio so rpm would be a more logical signal to be sending to gearbox, but i guess load could be something to do with maf/ tps etc.

Just seems weird imo that the maf would screw a gearbox, if you said it killed an engine I could understand that quicker.

So how does one keep an eye on ones Maf? any links to what a good ones like and test procedures?

ainarssems 16th October 2013 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delboy (Post 63123)
Could someone please explain to me how a faulty MAF can destroy a gearbox?

MAF values are used for load calculations and torque reduction during gearshifts. If it does not read correct it can cause extra load, stress and wear to gearbox during gearchanges.

That being said lot of failures are caused by faulty seal which fails due to age and thermal cycling. Oil contain conditioners for rubber parts but with age additives in oil wear out and stop conditioning them. Regular oil changes help to keep seals in good condition and last longer.

Mugzee 16th October 2013 01:59 PM

The only way you can monitor in that depth is with diagnostic software.

This guy used to work at Audi. He was saying that RS6's had a massive problem with the MAF signals and people were replacing the MAF's periodically as preventative maintenance to help avoid gearbox failure. He knew of somebody who's RS6 box failed, had a new one fitted and within a couple of thousand miles it failed again due to the MAF's as they were overlooked.

Delboy 16th October 2013 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ainarssems (Post 63162)
MAF values are used for load calculations and torque reduction during gearshifts. If it does not read correct it can cause extra load, stress and wear to gearbox during gearchanges.

That being said lot of failures are caused by faulty seal which fails due to age and thermal cycling. Oil contain conditioners for rubber parts but with age additives in oil wear out and stop conditioning them. Regular oil changes help to keep seals in good condition and last longer.

That makes total sense, cheers for that. +++

So any further info how to check a MAF?

Mugzee 16th October 2013 04:05 PM

If you have VCDS:

http://www.ross-tech.net/vag-com/adv...AF_TechTip.pdf

Sir WIll 16th October 2013 05:20 PM

Gents,

If you replace the MAF is it also worth pulling the ECU fuse to reset everything so it can learn again?

Delboy 16th October 2013 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugzee (Post 63195)

Thats a great article, will be trying that out.

HPsauce 16th October 2013 08:46 PM

Indeed, I've printed it off and will have a preliminary look tomorrow.
Not sure about redlining an S8 in 2nd gear though, won't take long! :tuttut:

Delboy 16th October 2013 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPsauce (Post 63219)
Indeed, I've printed it off and will have a preliminary look tomorrow.
Not sure about redlining an S8 in 2nd gear though, won't take long! :tuttut:

Haha, been done a few times, maybe I need to tow another 8 to redline in 2nd to slow it down a bit.

Mugzee 16th October 2013 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delboy (Post 63218)
Thats a great article, will be trying that out.

I know, the tech tips are quite interesting.

I think it's amazing how little information the driver is given by the vehicle itself really. As an example, you'd think manufacturers would at least fit things like oil pressure and temperature gauges from the factory as that is quite important, at least on higher-end models anyway (slightly off-topic, I know).

It's almost worth fitting a new MAF sensor every couple of years if it causes such a problem!

HPsauce 16th October 2013 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delboy (Post 63220)
slow it down a bit.

Going a bit off topic I know, but that reminds me of picking up our youngest from Uni (Leeds) on our way back from Scotland (walking holiday) a few years back in the PF S8 when it was "at its peak".
We hadn't planned to do this and had a fair bit of our own stuff, but in the end we COMPLETELY filled the cabin as well as the boot and got all his stuff in - apart from the contents of 2 "bean bags" that we emptied into a large bin.
We ended up inching the electric windows up and slowly feeding ever-smaller items in (to him sitting in the back) until it was literally full to the roof. Both him and my wife had loads of stuff on their laps too.

I remember him asking - won't all this stuff slow us down rather on the way home! :ROFL:

Delboy 16th October 2013 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HPsauce (Post 63223)
Going a bit off topic I know, but that reminds me of picking up our youngest from Uni (Leeds) on our way back from Scotland (walking holiday) a few years back in the PF S8 when it was "at its peak".
We hadn't planned to do this and had a fair bit of our own stuff, but in the end we COMPLETELY filled the cabin as well as the boot and got all his stuff in - apart from the contents of 2 "bean bags" that we emptied into a large bin.
We ended up inching the electric windows up and slowly feeding ever-smaller items in (to him sitting in the back) until it was literally full to the roof. Both him and my wife had loads of stuff on their laps too.

I remember him asking - won't all this stuff slow us down rather on the way home! :ROFL:

Probably never even noticed it apart from not being able to see out the back window

HPsauce 16th October 2013 11:02 PM

Who bothers looking out the back window in an S8 on the M1? :tuttut:

HPsauce 17th October 2013 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mugzee (Post 63195)

Did a quick check today and the values were well within spec. Didn't do the redline test run though.

Mugzee 17th October 2013 06:06 PM

I haven't had time to do anything on the car yet other than buy bits for it. Had it a week today. Will be servicing the transmission on sat then have a play about with VCDS.

Do you think it's worth putting my other car in the Sales section? It is from the VAG group however not an Audi. Worth a try I suppose. . . .

Mugzee 3rd November 2013 12:08 PM

So a bit of an update really. . . .

Drained the transmission fluid yesterday and it was RED ATF!!! So annoyed. I have receipts from Audi for changing the fluid so unless it has been done since, they are the ones who put this fluid in. I still can't believe it.

I changed the filter, drain plug, relevant seals and gaskets, plus the all important Audi fluid. Carried out the fill procedure exactly. There were no metallic particles on the magnets, just the usual film of black deposits on the sump.

The thing that concerns me now is that when driving along at a steady low speed, then decelerate, the transmission seems to hunt to a lower gear and does so quite violently, shocking the drivetrain. Other than that, gear change is pretty smooth. This issue is a direct consequence of the fluid change as it didn't exist before.

My initial thoughts were that the fluid was low but I went through the fill process again and the level is fine. I'm now thinking that the mixing of the 2 fluids is causing an issue. . .

Any thoughts on this?


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