Brake misery continues
 

I don't know if anyone can help with this, but here goes.

Ever since I had my front calipers 'refurbished' I have brake problems. When I first get them back from the garage (A4 Audi), they're fine. Smooth as silk. But after about 3,000 miles, they start to judder.

Back to the garage for new pads (and discs last time) and they're fine again....for about 3,000 miles!

They've just started to judder again for the third time, 3,000 miles after the last set of new pads and discs. The first pads were Pagid, but the last ones weren't (but don't know what brand they are).

Now, A4 Audi tell me this: "the calipers were 'over sandblasted' and the pads are loose in the calipers. Once they pads 'bed in', then they move in the caliper and hence the shuddering".

To me, this sounds unlikely and I can't get my head around a) how sandblasting could really have such an impact on the calipers and b) how the brakes can perfect for as long as 3,000 miles (seems like a heck of a distance for bedding in) and then start to shudder.

Anyone have any idea what's going on? :Confused:

Sand blasting will remove some of the calipers but not enough to cause the pads to judder.

Can you feel it through the pedals or the car?

Are you a stamp on the breaks style of breaker?

I can feel the judder (and see it) through the steeing wheel and feel it on the pedal.

I'm usually a very gentle braker, but I have tried a few heavy foot sessions on the business park where I work, and it brings the car to a rapid halt no bother. However, on a couple of occasions there was a short skid and I didn't feel the ABS kick in. Relevant? The judder is worst, I think, from/at speeds of around 30mph and when the brakes are hot.

One thing I'm wondering is that they might not have replaced the tension spring. I'll have a look at the weekend. Would that cause these symptoms?

(/Start Beatbox)
He is the Laird from the Palace of Jim
He likes to drive hard (when the wife's not with him)
his braking is erratic at the best of times
but hes stamping on his brakes and not getting much sign. . .
(break it down?!)
Had his calipers refurbed, and brand new pads
Got his minions to fit them all, used all of his lads
But his brakes were a juddering
His wallet took a thuddering
and the driving is not Fab. . .
(/end beatbox) :cool:

No idea.

Hows your bushes?

or could your discs be warped at all Jim?

Could be discs but they replaced them?
Twice?

Could put some copper slip on the runners for the pads and back of the pads. see if that helps if they are saying its the pads.

I'm trying to think what else it could be.

I assume he'd know what warped discs feel like?

Could be that the caliper isn't quite returning properly and causing the discs to warp, but not too likely.

One thing may be pad deposits, often only cured by skimming the disks.

I'd try copper grease on the back of the pads as above, might help. Also find a nice quiet road and do a few 80+ to 10 mph stops, with ABS kicking it, etc.

If the ABS sensor is a bit grubby, you might get some strangeness, but I'd have thought it would just appear through the pedal, but worth checking too.

Yes, discs replaced at least once (the last time) and, as per a recent thread that referred to warping, it's pretty near impossible to do and is a bit of an urban myth.

Jim, as you may remember with mine, it was a combination of pads (newly fitted Pagid's which then cracked) and control arm bushes which, if worn, amplify any other induced vibration. New (different make) pads and control arms cured it.
But, if I remember correctly didnt you have the complete set lower and upper arms replaced anyway? if so, what about alignment?

(by the way Neil, I am impressed - sort of - by your apparent rapper credentials. Just dont come to the annual meet with your trousers hanging off your butt and the labels of your M&S Y-Fronts showing. Thats NOT cool.:p)

Neil man, this is a serious problem being discussed here.......:ROFL:

Sorry Maaan I just feel it and it flows :p

I feel ya bro, Aygo wiv da flow where Jim is concerned.....:p

OK, back the brake problem.

Yes, I had all the front control arms replaced. And anything like that or alignment doesn't explain why it's all good for 3,000 miles and then the juddering returns, time after time.

Give me strength ! :D

Caliper slide pins ?

Hi Jim I can relate to everything that you have said in your post I have been through exactly the same thing. Having replaced my discs and pads, Brembo/pagid from TPS I experienced the same symptoms in a similar period of time to you and it was really spoiling the driving experience particularly when I was braking at speed. Fortunately I was recommended to a brake specialists about an hour from me called Mototec who have equipment from Procut which is an on-car lathe which machines the brake discs in-situ. I was charged £66 and I can honestly say that it was money well spent I keep expecting my brakes to judder because I have had it for quite a while but everything is true and vibration free! If you search for Pro-cut the site allows you to locate garages who have the equipment or you can ring them. I wouldn't hesitate to use this again.
Regards David

On my current S8 the juddering was partly caused by a corroded caliper which was not allowing the pad to slide freely in its bracket. A used caliper from A8 parts fixed the problem, no more juddering. Also on my car it was more noticable above 30mph, below 30mph it was almost smooth.

Jim, there are some excellent suggestions here, but its the fact that things seem OK for 3000 miles that seems strange:Confused: maybe David's suggestion of a visit to a Procut expert might be your next move, looks like there is one in Paisley.

Jim, my judder story 3 years ago:

Installed new new front callipers, front disks and front pads. All parts genuine Audi, all done by Reading Audi, with 2 year warranty. Lot's of money, but all good.

6 months later car develops judder when braking at 'motorway' speeds, i.e. from 60-70mph down to about 40-50 mph. No judder at lower speeds. Judder 'feels' on the steering wheel too.

Back to Reading Audi -- please check my brakes under warranty. They test drive the car and return to me with diagnosis: REAR warped disks. WTF? I ask them again: you sure? (judder feels more from front than from rear). They say yes, sure. I thought they play with me to avoid fixing stuff under warranty.

I give them go ahead to change rear disks (thinking I will definitely kill them if judder won't disappear and claim my money back for rear disks).

They change rear disks only and judder disappears. Completely gone.

Lesson learned: it's not bleeding obvious where the judder comes from.

still doesnt explain the 3000 miles where everything is OK unfortunately:Confused:

I actually drove roughly 3000 miles after I changed front brakes before the judder developed! :rolleyes:

Sergey's point is very valid. We all expect the source to be the front. But his was obviously not.

The 3000miles issue may be explainable by the fact that when new, the tolerances are such that the vibration/judder cannot occur but, after a bit of wear, the pads (or whatever) have sufficient movement/slack to start the judder. Maybe.

Or it could be that it takes around 3000 miles for uneven pad transfer to build up?
due to some component not sitting/moving correctly.

Can you send me a link Brian? I can't find it

Owen Ferry knows his stuff.. used him when I first got my d2, and he did some work on the xc90 as well.. nice guy.

Thanks Guys, I'll drop by later today I think and have a chat

Spoke to Owen yesterday and booked the car in for next Tuesday. He has all sorts of gadgets to test brakes, skim discs in situ and check disc temperatures. I feel that he'll look into the cause of the problem, rather than just keep replacing parts.

Thanks for the pointing me in this direction folks!

This is exactly the same problem I'm getting on my FL S8. Juddering after about 3000 miles. I've been using EBC Turbo grooved discs and yellowstuff pads but its always the same: Judder, skim, 3000 mile later more judder, skim. It's now getting rather monotonous. I've rebuilt the calipers, which was easier than I thought it would be, but no difference. I've changed pads, discs still no difference. Sadly, in Dubai we don't have anything as sophisticated as Procut but there are plenty of Bodge-It, Fleece-'em and Scarper machine shops that will make matters worse.

I'm convinced the problem is with the front brakes as when moving quite slowly and applying the handbrake there is no judder at all.

One avenue I am pursuing is regarding the front wheel bearings. I had one changed about three years ago and this judder has only occurred since then. The wheel bearing itself comes in a housing that once the hub has been pressed in it is then bolted to the steering knuckle. If this housing has been bolted into the knuckle slightly out of line then this would create a slight misalignment between the disc and the calipers/pads. This could, I think, cause uneven wear which could cause judder. What do you guys think?

And they've not fixed it :Confused: Only joking.

I suffer from the same problem and have done for years now. I find it's only under light braking i get the problem, if i brake hard(ish) while down changing i don't get judder. It seemingly comes from the passenger side, and on that side the calpier also knocks as it wobbles slightly on the pins (can be moved by hand), i thought it was this movement under light braking that was causing the judder, until braking hard(ish).

Owen Ferry has suggested that it may be a piston in one of the calipers not returning fully. As such, it constantly rubs the pad against the disc, which overheats. After about 3000 miles of overheating, the disc warps sufficiently to cause judder. Hope all will be revealed next Tuesday.

Feel free to use my car Jim when yours is in dock - even tho' you are taking mine into Ollies for the bonnet job as well! One good favour etc....+++

I've got it planned such that a colleague from works picks me up and drops me off on his way in and out of the office, soI can leave mine for the day. Which is lucky, 'cos your car will be in at Ollie's when mine is in at Owen Ferry's! :D

Got the car back from Owen Ferry Automotive a couple of days ago and, fingers crossed, all seems well! :)

They have a gadget that measures the temperature of the discs and Owen had phoned, after they'd taken it for a run, to say that one of the rear discs was hotter than the other three and he was going to investigate. Earlier in this thread, someone said that you can't always tell whether the problem is front or rear brakes.

Now, that's 2 things I like about a garage already: keeps you informed and investigates (doesn't just replace parts). +++

So, as the photos below clearly illustrate, one of the rear calipers had the pads stuck (the rusty ones at the top of the photo) and these were catching on the disc (see the grooves at the base of 2 of the pads).

Another thing I like about a garage: they keep the old parts to show you what the problem was. +++

Owen phoned again to let me know the score and recommended that he replaced the rear pads and skimmed the discs. They have another gadget that does this on the hub to compensate for any 'hub run out' (I think that means it doesn't spin in a perfect circle). He also suggested that I should consider having the front discs skimmed too.

Point 4 that I like about a garage: ask the customer before racking up a big bill. +++

So, I had all 4 discs skimmed and replacement rear pads. Owen took the photo of one of the front discs after he'd skimmed it (another point for Owen! +++) and sent it to me.

Now, I know I have to wait to see if this resolves the problems that were recurring at around 3,000 miles, but I have never had such beautifully smooth brakes - the effect of the skimming is amazing! I drove David's S8 last weekend and thought how nice his brakes were (before mine were fixed), but mine are even better now!

So, full marks for Owen Ferry: nice guy; clean, well equipped garage; brilliant customer service; cares about what he does! :D

Good result Jim! how much did he charge for the whole lot then?

Six hours labour at £39 per hour plus £28 for the pads (all plus VAT). Total £314 incl. VAT.

He'd also checked that the calipers were all working OK so, if this is the cure (and the brakes are better than they've ever been), I think it's money well spent. :)

Good result Jim, fingers crossed for you+++

Yes, there is a scenario that fits as well:

The last set of new front discs and pads were a different make of pad to the first 2 attempts. So, it could be that that the front set-up was fine and it's just coincidence that the problem with the rear pads occured around 3K miles after the front ones were last fixed.

The old rear pads look like a make that begins 'Ape---' but I can't make the full word out. Ring any bells with anyone?

Could be 'Apec': http://www.apec-braking.co.uk/