Tesla

[HPsauce]

Refineries are actually pretty efficient, as are many/most other processes in both chains.
The really BIG losses occur when hydrocarbons are burnt to generate power;
1. In power stations, typically running around 30% efficient
2. In vehicle engines, again around 30%

Electric vehicles (ignoring all the battery issues) will probably only become "better" in that competition when they can use power from alternative sources.

[Goran]

They are efficien with the electricity they receive, but does that take account of the efficiency to produce that electricity? They produce some of their own electricity and take at least 15% from the grid.

The earlier quoted efficiency of 88% is the overall internal efficiency for all products. What is the efficiency of producing gasoline and diesel? Here is one rough figure:

"U.S. refineries produce about 19 gallons of motor gasoline, 12 gallons of ultra-low sulfur distillate fuel, most of which is sold as diesel fuel, and 4 gallons of jet fuel from a 42 gallon barrel of crude oil."

http://www.eia.gov/Energyexplained/i...e=oil_refining

That does not take into account the barrels burned to deliver the fuel, or the efficiency of the electricity to produce it, and yet they still only get only 74% of motor vehicle fuels from each barrel of oil. I still maintain burning crude at a power plant to power electric vehicles is more efficient than to refine it for motor vehicles.

New info, we can use the more efficient way of generating electricity from oil, 75% replacing the earlier 34% figure putting electric vehicle efficiency from crude oil way in front.

http://www.exxonmobil.co.uk/UK-Engli...ng_fawley.aspx

[HPsauce]

That 75% is really interesting but it's actually a CHP (Combined Heat and Power) unit, so yes it's 75% efficient in that only 25% is "wasted" but a lot of it is used for heating.
Quite probably heating used in the refining process.

(PS I used to work for Esso and later BP and do know a fair bit about refineries)

By the way, refineries produce the mix of fuels that they are designed to produce and this can be adjusted or changed, though big changes are not necessarily easy.
Producing 19 gallons of petrol from 42 gallons of crude means little or nothing in efficiency terms, it's certainly not 19/42 (45%).
A better measure is how much total energy is in the output fuels vs how much is consumed in the process. That may be the 88% you mentioned.

[tonupkid]

For me the exciting thing with electric cars is when their numbers reach a critical mass, there will be in effect a gigantic battery distributed all over the country (sitting in cars).
Any time, day or night, with those electric cars sitting plugged into the network, we can at last store excess renewable energy and also reverse this to cover peaks in demand.
The future is electric

[Goran]

Sorry sorry just one more

http://www.ramboll.co.uk/projects/re..._power_station

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uploade...15_16%20v4.pdf

electric car

0.49 (power plant) x 0.91 (national grid UK efficiency) x 0.68 (electric car) = 0.30

petrol and diesel cars in UK

0.88 (refinery, I disagree with this figure) x 0.99 (trucks to pump) x 0.25 (combined petrol and diesel vehicles in UK) = 0.22

[HPsauce]

Interesting, shows what is achievable, though comparing "the best" power station in the whole world to average UK petrol/diesel cars isn't fair.
Still in the same ball park though.

As it happens my daughter works for Ramboll but not in that discipline.

[tintin]

As we seem to be extending this into a "whole lifecycle" argument, I'll just add this, to fuel the fire (if you pardon the pun... )

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-tax-revenues/

[tintin]

...before I depart from Glasgow, on my day from Manchester in the Tesla that cost precisely £0.00, and which I could have done with my eyes closed for 90% of it...

https://youtu.be/iVGsWvRa1XA

[tintin]

I thought I'd share this, for those on here with an interest in such things - a straight lift from a post by a fellow owner who's just made this trip:

Arrived at the west end of the Algarve last night after driving the Model S from home in Yorkshire. With the exception of the full charge at home prior to leaving, the total cost of energy to get us here was £0. Supercharged at Northampton then again at Winchester. 24 hour ferry from Portsmouth to Santander (6 miles lost to the vampire).
We then charged again at the SC in Burgos (northern Spain - at superb Hotel Landa). That was our last Supercharger. Mid way through Spain we stayed at Hotel Rector in Salamanca which has a destination charger in their garage. Lovely hotel in the centre of a superb historic city. We did a 100% charge, at no cost.
The next day, we had a 210 mile journey to the CHAdeMO at Pombal Services in Portugal, where the Mobie chargers are still all free. Due to economical driving, we still has 50 miles remaining when we got there! 2 more charges, again free CHAdeMOs at motorway services, and we reached our destination.
We're here for 2 months, and we have a Rolec 32amp charger at the villa - Tesla friends welcome if you are in the area. Needless to say, the journey was a pleasure, and the car (2 year old 85) was faultless - which is good as the nearest service centre is near Marseille 1100 miles away!
Autopilot in particular was just superb on the very quiet motorways of Spain and Portugal. Thank you Tesla, for a great car, and low cost travel.

[briang9]

You might need to explain the term "economical driving" to some of us on here though