WITW - Ricky's van attack
 

Ok as a few of you have already figured, and probably inevitably, Ricky D's lovely green S8 has made it's way to the workshop following it's unfortunate incident with a van while parked. Mike and I went over and picked it up with a trailer and brought it back for further investigation.

Ricky kept his extraordinary wheels so I stuck some spares on for the journey home. We all agreed they rather suit it!

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

Getting it on the lift was no easy task with the rear end steering wherever it wanted! In the end I put it on forwards, since I would be mostly working on the rear end anyway.

It is leaking so much oil even BP is looking smug!

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

Uh-oh - a crack...

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The rear subframe took the brunt of the impact and all the control arms are still intact. This is the bolt from the front right subframe bush!

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The crack is along a weld and is about 50mm long by 1mm wide. There is a scuff on the fuel tank as the subframe came in to contact with it, but the tank is still fine.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

You can see here how bent the subframe is. There is a dent in the mounting pad just in front of the threaded boss which is what has caused the crack.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

This bump in the subframe bush (from the solid boss where the bolt fits) is what caused the dent in the mounting pad.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

A closer look at the crack. This would be trivial to tig weld, were it not for the plastic fuel tank right next to it!

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The subframe folded like tinfoil

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The front lower arm mount is distended and twisted

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

Since the subframe is dead anyway I cut the bush out to get a good look at the threaded boss before proceeding. The good news is that the boss is still perpendicular to the body and has not shifted. It measures within 2mm of my Murple which means I'm 99% sure this can be saved +++

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The lower rear bush tore out of the arm

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The funky dual exhaust was made in one single piece and was a bit of a bugger to remove

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

and unfortunately tore apart under its own weight :( Not sure what I'm going to do about this at the moment, but I'll probably cut it in to sections and join them with sleeve clamps, then weld this back together.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

Stripped the suspension with the subframe in place as it's easier than on the floor since it doesn't move about

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The lower arm front bush went splat! I've never seen a rubber bush squished out of shape like this before

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

I'm learning lots of useful things for when it comes to rear subframe removal and refurbishment, like the handbrake cable bracket is an arse to get to! Its bolted through the diff mount with both the heat shield and fuel tank in the way so the front of the subframe has to be lowered to gain access.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

Got it in the end

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

I left the driveshafts on the diff since they can stay put when it's transferred to the replacement subframe, but most of the rest came off

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

Some ballast in the boot to make up for the weight I'm about to remove!

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

Removal of the rear subframe is the same as for the front - lower the car to the ground, support the subframe, remove all the bolts and lift the car off it

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The fuel tank:

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

With a good bolt in place you can see that the mounting boss is still perpendicular

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608069481

The plan is to temporarily replace the rear subframe and the right hand suspension components and also the front lower arms since the right front also took an impact, and then see how it responds to a wheel alignment. Assuming it lines up properly and confirms my measurements of the floorpan, I'll pull the subframe and the fuel tank so the crack can be welded.

If you're wondering why not just pull the tank now and get it done, two reasons: 1, I'd rather take the subframe off multiple times than take the tank off even once! 2, my tig guy isn't available until January and I want to know if it can be fixed before then :p

“Doctor will see you” a full mri scan+++ gone to right hand.

Ah! I didn't think it would be long before another series of WITW came along!! :ROFL:
Once again, a really fascinating insight into what can be done - with the right technical knowledge, equipment and, of course, MJs excellent engineering understanding+++

I have mixed emotions; on one hand I'm ecstatic to have my car featured on WITW, but on the other hand I wish it was under different circumstances.

MJ now that you've stripped down the rear end I can really see the extent of the damaged components. It was really difficult for me to see this whilst on the ground without a reference point.

I cant remember if I showed you the damage to the van that hit my car?

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...4&d=1608123457

I think the S8 won that battle then.

Its impossible to see any damage at all at the front, other than the wheel being in the wrong place. The subframe had shifted but thats not the extent of it, hence changing all four control arms as a first step as the bush in the right lower rear is looking a bit squished. All the subframe bolts are in the right place so if control arms don't correct it then a replacement front subframe is also in order, but we'll have to wait and see on that.

The damage to the body at the rear is pretty superficial in the end as the hard points are all in the same place. This is what happened:

As the subframe moved forward, rotating around the bolt (yellow arrow) the solid block in the bush (yellow hash) ran out of travel and started pushing through the upper bush face (red circle).

This movement pushed on the subframe mounting pad, moving it upward (orange). As the cast aluminium moved, it was constrained by the threaded boss (purple) which is a very solid chunk of stuff. The energy was therefore imparted to the area in front of the boss, which moved upward slightly (green arrows) and cracked the weld.

The rear of the mounting pad (purple area) is untouched and still where it should be, so welding up the crack will put the strength back in that area and everything should align up just fine again.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608124802


The D2s use an amazingly strong aluminium alloy. I remember when we repaired the sill damage to Big Red, trying to bend the metal back in to position took a remarkable amount of force. It is much harder than steel of the era.

Back when I had my first D2 3.7 a colleague driving a mk1 Renault Laguna ran in to the back of it in stop-start motorway traffic. The Laguna was destroyed and had a D2-shaped void where it's bumper and radiator used to be and had to be towed away. My A8's bumper was scratched and the aluminium trim came off, but was otherwise unharmed :love:

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608124802

Unfortunately quite a common issue with stainless systems - had one made up on my bit of French tat, which is notorious for having no support between the exquisite 8-2-1 manifold flexi joint and the mid box, which lives just behind the back seat! Fabricator managed to create an additional mount using some of those cotton reel style rubber bushes and some spare holes in a bracket hanging under the front seats.

Mine has one sleeved joint half way along to aid removal

It's a big digression, but that reminded me of an unfortunate "event" in the late 1970s at the massive Shepherds Bush "Squareabout" when I was on my way to work.
A Fiat hatchback of some sort was in front of me at the Give Way line and drove off but then stopped for reasons I never did find out. I'd started just after him and was glancing to my right to check on traffic coming round and rear-ended him at full throttle though low speed so no-one was hurt.
His Fiat had a Triumph Dolomite shaped indentation right up to the back seat!
My Dolomite had a slight "ding" in the centre front below the badge between the two grilles and one of the underriders on the front bumper bent slightly back.
His car was a write-off, mine was totally driveable and cost very little to fix.
I don't know what 1970s Fiats were made of but if it was steel it was VERY thin!
(Before anyone asks, it wasn't a Sprint. 1850HL with overdrive. Tahiti Blue I think)

Incredible breakdown +++

I love watching aviation disaster documentaries and how the investigators piece together the chain of events leading to the crash or near miss. Your breakdown reminded me of this :D

Funny that: I had the the same, but in reverse around '87/88: I was in our Fiat Uno, and stopped behind a BL Mini at Bowdon roundabout by the M56, a mile from home. The Mini went to go, so I followed. He stopped, I didn't - and the back of the mini crumpled, whereas my Uno sustained a cracked number plate, but nothing more. :D

Cleaning up the replacement subframe tonight, prior to sandblasting hopefully tomorrow, then re-paint on Friday.

I'm working on the principle that the car is recoverable and can keep this subframe therefore it might as well be a nice one. If that doesn't work out, at least I have a clean subframe for something else.

I removed as much of the loose rust and paint as I could with a wire wheel on the grinder which hopefully should make sandblasting quicker and therefore more likely to be squeezed in tomorrow :)

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608143083

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608143083

Ready to drop off in the morning

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608143083

Great work and a joy to read. Thanks for sharing Michaela +++

not replacing the bushes then?

No, the subframe bushes are fine. Its just really crusty, although tbh fairly representative of most D2s out there now.

Are you planning on doing anything with the inside of the subframe MJ? I was thinking of swilling some rust converter around the inside on the one I have when I get around to it.

I usually fill them with expanding foam, although I won't have time with this one. I may do it when it comes back off to get the crack welded.

This is it with the first coat of paint

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608367753

I really hate painting subframes! Its not difficult, just messy and so time consuming. Plus why do I only seem to do them in the winter? This is in my office with the heater on so the paint works. If I could find someone to do this job for me I would gladly farm it out, but it will barely fit in my local powdercoater's oven. Plus, powder means the bushes have to come out which adds considerable cost, in some cases unnecessarily.

Second coat today, then a day to dry so probably back on the car on Monday. Front lower control arms today.

It might be messy and time consuming, because one has to wait before painting the next layer.
But it looks so much better, and the knowledge that it will not start rusting again anytime soon, makes me love the process. I'd volunteer if I lived close by.
Although I agree it is a pain in the winter, when the temperature is to low.

Quite amazing really. You do all kinds of detailing and even manufacture items... but hate this.

I would have been more annoyed with the process getting the part prepared for the paint

Oh I dislike that bit equally as much, but at least once I've got all the larger chunks off and degreased it (in the case of the front ones) I can send that part out and get it sandblasted. I really need to just outsource the whole process so I get back a nice new subframe to put back on.

More progress on the car today. Mike came over and we swapped out the front lower arms which has straightened out the front end perfectly. The displacement of the wheel was because the large inner bushing on the right lower rear arm was distorted and so had pushed the bottom of the strut forward. With four new arms the front suspension measures within 1mm each side to fixed points on the body +++

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1608397764

Mikki, what paint are you using on that subframe?

Used that on the underneath of my VW van after replacing most of its panels and chassis rails - good stuff+++

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...pscez9dbhh.jpg

How does this stuff compare to this stuff that we have here in the States?

POR15 is a bit rubbish tbh. I read great things about it and tried it on some motorcycle parts, but not only is it ludicrously expensive, it goes off in the tin before you can use it all. To top that off, by the time it had dried, there were little bubbles of rust on the surface of it! Its supposed to encapsulate the rust and use any moisture in it to cure, but it seemed to do the exact opposite.

Rustoleum is much easier to use, cheaper, and stays liquid in the tin. I painted all the steel work in my workshop with it and 5 years later its all still perfect. That's American too though :)

Holy moly is that rusty! This might be a dumb question but is there anyway to custom fit a front and rear aluminum subframe from the D3 cars?

Interesting.... I've never used it, just heard about it.

The D3 front subframe is completely different so no way with that.

The rear is almost the same, with just one bushing in a different place but that could be cut out and welded back in. That's been done before, but I'm not sure its worth the effort tbh. I don't know what the weight difference is, if any.

Do you have any sources or links for this? I'm crazy enough to try it:love:

Its somewhere in the first 250 pages of this thread on resja.nu. Get your Google Translate on +++

I'll try and remember to weigh the D2 subframe before I put it back on. I doubt there will be a significant enough difference in weight to the D3 unit to justify the work.

The C5 R/S6 had aluminium subframes whereas the A6 had steel, but the fronts at least weigh exactly the same. I believe Audi used aluminum for the R/S versions simply because it was cheaper to make a small quantity that way, rather than tooling up to make steel ones. Potentially its also stiffer, but the amount of rubber they put in the suspension would negate that anyway.

By the way, I have finished for xmas now (yes, how very dare I? :p). Back on it on the 27th when the fuel tank comes off in preparation for welding up the crack on the 28th.

Well, you shutting up shop means one thing less of anything worthwhile watching over xmas :ROFL:.....
But have a good one MJ and I hope Santa is good to you +++

half way down page 10. steel subframe is 30kg and aluminium one is 20, they had to modify some bracket and bushes too, too much work.

enjoy your time off!

I did thank you :) We weighed the subframe with bushes today - 21Kg.

I took the tank off yesterday in preparation for welding. I was pondering whether to try and work round it, but in the end it made more sense to just take it off. Practice for doing Big Red in the near future :rolleyes: It actually wasn't too bad and took about 3 hours. It'll be much easier next time.

Start by disconnecting the gubbins in the wheel well

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

This crusty clamp connects the filler neck to the tank and disintegrated as soon as I touched it

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Coupler removed

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Slide this coupler down the filler neck and then the tube can be removed

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Mark and disconnect the vent hoses

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Disconnect the fuel feed and return. Random suspension bolt in the fuel filter to stop it dripping, although it still poured a load of fuel down my arm

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

These nuts on the tank support are known to be problematic as the studs are just rivnuts and tend to come loose from the body before the nut comes loose from the stud, so I just slice the nut straight off.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

I supported the tank on a trolley while I removed the forward retaining straps - these are all on stronger captive studs so not a problem like the previous one.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

The electrical connectors are removed in the boot and then the car is lifted off the tank. With two people, you could probably just lower it by hand.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

All these vent hoses have to be carefully pulled through the chassis leg without kinking them

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Around this time I am getting very nervous about removing weight from the rear, with the engine and gearbox still in the front, so I strapped the car to the lift!

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Tank out

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Once I got a closer look at the crack, I was glad I did remove the tank as it just curved round the edge slightly.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

I pulled the back seat to a; make sure it didn't catch fire, and b; open up any body grommets to make sure the chassis leg is empty and not full of expanding foam like the sills. Good access inside the parts to be welded is essential in case anything does catch fire (wax is often a problem).

I replaced the weight of the back seat with wheels ;)

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Cleaned off the underseal and paint ready for welding

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609176440

Welding day!

This taped-over hole was actually the best access to the void above the crack, such that it lit up from the welding arc :cool: I was standing on a ladder with the fire extinguisher while the welding was happening underneath. I knew when the crack was sealed up again as I could no longer see arc-light through the hole.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609177779

Craig the welder drilled holes at the end of the cracks to stop them propagating, then tig welded the crack back together

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609177779

He then laid a second bead down next to the first for added strength. You can see from the bead going left from the main one where the crack had also gone sideways - this would have been impossible to get to if I had left the tank in. Apparently I didn't quite remove enough underseal though, so that got a little crispy!

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609177779

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609177779

Smoke mostly cleaned off and the whole area wiped down with thinnners

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609177779

Underseal reapplied in the original locations. I will paint over the underseal and the weld tomorrow once the underseal is dry.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609177779

One of the body grommets also undersealed back in place

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609177779

Hopefully tank and subframe back on tomorrow +++

I think I’ve read through this 3 times now :D

My first thought was the tank just looks super bulky and just awkward to work on :eek:

Then I started to think about the prep work that went into the welding. I know from experience that one momentary lose of concentration and the car and workshop would be toast.

My friends garage went up in flames in a matter of minutes after his colleague was welding and didn’t remove enough foam. My flat used to be opposite the garage and I had a front row seat to the biggest bonfire I’d seen. Horrible to watch and once it took hold everyone was completely helpless to fight it.

You guys rock +++

Nice bit of welding there +++

Yes it is. Its big and heavy and awkward to handle and just a general pain in the posterior. Its a huge packaging compromise.

One of the benefits of working exclusively on aluminium cars is that bodywork welding is a very rare occurrence in my workshop :) I won't weld anything unless I can see the other side and get an extinguisher hose to it. When we did the sill on Big Red I had the body grommets out of that too, and removed a load of expanding foam from the area beforehand. As the welding was taking place, I was feeding CO2 in to the void using my mig welder torch to keep everything under control.

There are only four instances of D2 welding so far - BR's sill, the crack in Vera's suspension turret, the broken strut brace bracket on Bert's manual swap, and this one.

Not much danger of anything catching fire from welding work on a D2 - everything’s ususally soaked from water ingress. Who needs fire extinguishers when you’ve got Botang’s Hole :ROFL:

:D

Painted the repaired area today but that's all. I'll hopefully get the tank done tomorrow.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609272171

Silver rustoleum. Not like it actually needs painting since it won't rust, but it seems incomplete to leave it bare...

I put the tank back on yesterday. It took about 30 minutes to put the tank back in place and bolt it up, and then an hour fighting with the pipework to the filler neck :rolleyes:

Back in the way it came out - lower the car on to it, being careful not to trap anything in the process. Note how close the fuel filter is to the arm of the lift - its equally tight on the brackets for the under-trays so I shall remove this next time.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609411009

The vent pipes can be put through the hole in the chassis leg when the tank is still 6-8" down from final position. Lifting them up to meet the hole saves bending them horizontally.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609411009

Reattached. The pipe clips are NLA and a bit of a mess so I've used jubilee-type clamps in this pic, but they are too bulky. I'll need to recover the originals I think, and research an aftermarket solution for future projects.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609411009

The dual hose clamp here is also NLA as it's D2-only. Tbh I don't see any reason to attach the two clamps to each other - that only makes it harder to assemble. They're stock sizes though so easy to replace with single clamps.

http://forum.a8parts.co.uk/attachmen...1&d=1609411009

Subframe next +++

Whenever there is a new WITW thread, we also find out what else is now NLA :(

There appears to be so many specific D2 parts not shared with other models. I suspect the thing that makes D2 so appealing to me, and probably others (exclusivity) is the same thing that makes them a bit more of a PITA as they get older.

One thing I wanted to ask MJ, is there a possibility of bent shock absorbers with these types of impacts? I’m not even sure how you’d spot this unless it was a super obvious bend on the body of it.....check it with a spirit level laid horizontally perhaps?? :ROFL:

But we also find solutions to many of them +++ The vent hose clips actually cleaned up fine with a bit of elbow grease so not a big problem.

My main concern with the shock was that it may have bent the shaft at the top where it goes in to the top mount - this is the usual failure mode for them. Luckily in this case the top mount had enough give to accomodate the angle of the shock and so there is no damage. I checked it by rotating the shaft and looking for runout in the top mount and there isn't any :)